Jacques Kallis vs Steve Waugh

[subshakerz]

Including WI, Kallis averages 50.02. Ponting 45.07

Excluding both WI and NZ, Kallis averages 47.62. Ponting 40.62.

The whole exercise pretty much points to Punter minnow bashing.

Again, just to remind you, the only away country Kallis is notably better than Ponting is India.

 

[StephenZA]

I just want to say here, that I don't think that Kallis was better than Ponting, which has now become part of this thread. I think that Kallis was better than Waugh though. I think that Kallis played within himself for most of his career because of what was asked of him from captains, coaches and team management. I think that Kallis had the potential to be as great as Lara, Tendulkar and Ponting but did not get to those heights because he played within himself. But that does not detract from what he did do as a batsmen and also what he did for SA. People like to complain because he did not do more, and that is fine, but don't take away from what he did achieve.

 

[h_hurricane]

Again, just to remind you, the only away country Kallis is notably better than Ponting is India.

Why do you want to take out India though lol. If Kallis is marginally worse than Ponting in some countries and yet significantly better in one country, enough to the extent that it creates a 5 run gap in their overall overseas averages, I would take that easily.

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis started in 95. Waugh finished in 04. 99 is an arbitrary cutoff point. You want to be comparing pre 95 to post 04. You won't be able to do this with individual bats. The gap is too long. You will run into lol sample sizes before and/or after for most bats, and massive quality changes in their batting over the better part of a decade.

That wasnt the point of the exercise. It was to show that beginning in the 2000s batting worldwide became easier which resulted in average boosts across the board, Kallis included.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Why do you want to take out India though lol.

He never said that

 

[subshakerz]

Why do you want to take out India though lol. If Kallis is marginally worse than Ponting in some countries and yet significantly better in one country, enough to the extent that it creates a 5 run gap in their overall overseas averages, I would take that easily.

That is the way you choose to look at it.

Player A has a very poor record in one country, but aside from that country is better than Player B everywhere else.

Player B has a poor record in two countries and is much better than A in only one country where A is very poor, to the extent it gives him a better average.

Player A clearly seems to me a better all-conditions player.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Friendly reminder: "Batting average" is not a magical sole assessment of a batsman's value or ability, regardless of how many specific analytical permutations you put it through

 

[h_hurricane]

That is the way you choose to look at it.

Player A has a very poor record in one country, but aside from that country is better than Player B everywhere else.

Player B has a poor record in two countries and is much better than A in only one country where A is very poor, to the extent it gives him a better average.

Player A clearly seems to me a better all-rounder player.

Again, this is dodgy as well. Kallis's record in Aus is comparable to Ponting's in SA. In fact Kallis averages fractionally more, but lets ignore it.
They average similar in NZ as well. Ponting barely played a test in Pakistan, so comparing his average there with Kallis is impossible, especially since Kallis shone there over a larger sample size.

Only places where Ponting was clearly better was Eng and SL. But the difference between them is only about a fifth of their respective India records.

Kallis simply has the better overseas record whichever way you slice and dice.

 

[h_hurricane]

Friendly reminder: "Batting average" is not a magical sole assessment of a batsman's value or ability, regardless of how many specific analytical permutations you put it through

Nobody is disputing this. Once they are in the same ballpark (for instance Border vs Waugh) you look at other factors like impact, dominance etc.

However, the two players in discussion here are not even in the same ballpark, and the more you slice and dice, the more evident it is.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Again, this is dodgy as well. Kallis's record *average* in Aus is comparable to Ponting's in SA. In fact Kallis averages fractionally more, but lets ignore it.
They average similar in NZ as well. Ponting barely played a test in Pakistan, so comparing his average there with Kallis is impossible, especially since Kallis shone there over a larger sample size.

Only places where Ponting was clearly better *higher average* was Eng and SL. But the difference between them *their average* is only about a fifth of their respective India records *averages*.

Kallis simply has the better overseas record *averages* whichever way you slice and dice.

Fixed some of this for you.

You're trying really hard but kind of barking up the wrong tree. Average has never really been a differentiating factor between these 2. No one rated Ponting higher because of his average. It's kind of an irrelevant angle to go after but I respect the effort you've put into it nonetheless.

Tbh we really said all that needed to be said back a few pages ago. Ponting's general higher rating is mostly due to his more dominant influence on matches, winning Test matches, effect on opposition and the major part of that is his scoring rate.

If you want to argue against Ponting in this comparison then focus on that. Talk about how you don't think a higher scoring rate is that important, we've been back and forth on this a few pages back and there were some very well though out comments. I can't see anything to be said that would add to what we've already all been through

However, the two players in discussion here are not even in the same ballpark, and the more you slice and dice, the more evident it is.

wow

 

[h_hurricane]

Fixed some of this for you.

You're trying really hard but kind of barking up the wrong tree. Average has never really been a differentiating factor between these 2. No one rated Ponting higher because of his average. It's kind of an irrelevant angle to go after but I respect the effort you've put into it nonetheless.

Tbh we really said all that needed to be said back a few pages ago. Ponting's general higher rating is mostly due to his more dominant influence on matches, winning Test matches, effect on opposition and the major part of that is his scoring rate.

If you want to argue against Ponting in this comparison then focus on that. Talk about how you don't think a higher scoring rate is that important, we've been back and forth on this a few pages back and there were some very well though out comments. I can't see anything to be said that would add to what we've already all been through



wow

ok

 

[Bolo.]

That wasnt the point of the exercise. It was to show that beginning in the 2000s batting worldwide became easier which resulted in average boosts across the board, Kallis included.

*Kallis and Waugh included if you are picking 99.

The bats you are picking were well established by Waughs retirement. You aren't going to see their collective averages change too much after then.

99 is simply the wrong date. And even if it wasn't, it doesn't give us any info about how tough batting was at the start of Waugh's career.

 

[subshakerz]

Again, this is dodgy as well. Kallis's record in Aus is comparable to Ponting's in SA. In fact Kallis averages fractionally more, but lets ignore it.
They average similar in NZ as well. Ponting barely played a test in Pakistan, so comparing his average there with Kallis is impossible, especially since Kallis shone there over a larger sample size.

Only places where Ponting was clearly better was Eng and SL. But the difference between them is only about a fifth of their respective India records.

Kallis simply has the better overseas record whichever way you slice and dice.

Again you fail to acknowledge that Kallis was poor in Eng and SL, not just behind in Ponting. As in, he failed in two countries, not just one like Ponting. And they represent over a third of his away record.

If you want to say their away records are comparable, fine. But by no stretch is Kallis clearly better.

 

[Tec15]

Kallis isn't on the same level as any of Lara, Tendulkar or Ponting. He was just too slow

classic case of judging purely based on one stat (career average)

Lol at including Ponting with Lara and Tendulkar.
classic case of judging purely based on one stat (Australian).

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lol at including Ponting with Lara and Tendulkar.
classic case of judging purely based on one stat (Australian).

Haha look who it is, surprised you didn't pop up sooner

Ftr I don't think Ponting's as good a bat as those 2

 

[Uppercut]

I'd definitely have said Kallis was better than Ponting overall. Ponting's peak years were better, he might even have had the highest peak of any batsman of that generation. But he had quite serious technical problems in the last five or six years. He always needed to feel bat on ball, and struggled when his hand-eye co-ordination started to fade, teams started bowling a wider line to him, and lateral movement became more common. Kallis's more orthodox technique aged much better, and towards the end of their careers he pulled ahead.

 

[Tec15]

A classic way of comparing Kallis and Ponting is to look at how they were faring at the very end in their respective last tests.

In Kallis's last test against India in Durban, it was a must win situation after the infamous 458 chase draw in Johannesburg in the previous test. Now in that chase of 458 Kallis started brilliantly, playing his hots and racing to 34 of 36 balls, before being sawn of against Zaheer Khan, while getting massive inside edge into his pads (No DRS thanks to BCCI). This time around, he was more cautious and constructed a painstaking 115 to lead South Africa to massive lead and to an eventual comfortable win. While he was batting however, the usual class of dullards and Australians were all: " WTF is he doing? WhY iS hE sOoO sLowww? Lolz, he is turning the match into a draw, just watch. See this is why Ponting is soooo much better. He wOuLd hAvE pLaYeD hIs sHoTs!!"?

Flashback to a year earlier in Punter's last test (That's right, he lasted a whole year less despite supposedly being on a whole other level with the bat ?) against South Africa in Perth, and we see what he was actually capable of doing by then. In his first innings, he gets totally dominated by Philander and trapped LBW for 4 because his technique just wasn't good enough anymore with his declining reflexes. In the second innings, chasing over 600, he "decided to play his shots™", scored two streaky boundaries before being done by Robin Pieterson of all people. Trying to play an aggressive cut shot, but only getting an edge to slip (And getting caught by Kallis!) and walking of as Australia wound up getting marmalized, losing the test and the series.

To me, this was a microcosm of how they were viewed through their career. All context about Kallis's batting situation being ignored in order to berate him for supposedly letting his team down by scoring too slowly, while claiming Ponting was so much better because he "played his shots™". This while Ponting's failures in his last test (And last few years, TBH) were glossed over and he kept being put above his station by the Aussie cheer squad. Oh, well, at least Kallis proved he was superior in the end.

 

[subshakerz]

I'd definitely have said Kallis was better than Ponting overall. Ponting's peak years were better, he might even have had the highest peak of any batsman of that generation. But he had quite serious technical problems in the last five or six years. He always needed to feel bat on ball, and struggled when his hand-eye co-ordination started to fade, teams started bowling a wider line to him, and lateral movement became more common. Kallis's more orthodox technique aged much better, and towards the end of their careers he pulled ahead.

Ponting was notably better than Kallis for 2/3rds of their careers, so Kallis aging better doesnt change who is the better batsman to me.

 

[Tec15]

Haha look who it is, surprised you didn't pop up sooner

Ftr I don't think Ponting's as good a bat as those 2

Hey, I'm the one who shifted the entire topic to Kallis vs Ponting (Since Waugh isn't even a contender really).

 

[Tec15]

Ponting was notably better than Kallis for 2/3rds of their careers, so Kallis aging better doesnt change who is the better batsman to me.

Except that he wasn't.