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Jacques Kallis vs Steve Waugh

Who was the greater test batsman?

  • Jacques Kallis

    Votes: 34 61.8%
  • Steve Waugh

    Votes: 21 38.2%

  • Total voters
    55

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I don't disagree that Kallis's average is inflated (so is Sanga's).

I do think Ponting's is inflated as well(though I agree it is controversial). For a start, he averaged a full 11 run more at home than abroad.

And I hate to bring up India again, but can't help because the difference is glaring. Ponting averages 88 at home against India but 26 away.
I tend to view players who benefited from early 2000s to early 2010s as scoring a higher percentage of discount runs. So I view those whose reputations are built solely on this period as slightly suspect and possibly overrated. So yeah, Ponting's record is definitely inflated as well.

However, Ponting from the start to 2008/9 was pretty much seen in world cricket as a better bat than Kallis, so a few more years of longevity are not enough to make Kallis a better batsman for me.
 

TheJediBrah

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Saying players' averages are inflated is overused. Unless you're a Sri Lankan who played a 3rd of your games against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, or you're an English swing bowler with 600 Test wickets who can't bowl without the duke on a cloudy day :ph34r:
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
I actually respect your opinion more knowing it's based on this personal experience, it makes a lot more sense. Everyone is going to let things involving their own team have a high weighting on the way they see things, it's inevitable.
As I mentioned earlier, I think Ponting vs Kallis is close and people are allowed to have a differing view on this, especially if there are varying factors favoring either of these players. I wouldn't mark Ponting down solely for his India record. In order to have a healthy discussion though, one will have to do pros and cons of both the careers and not just "Ponting is better because he dominated more than Kallis or had a slightly better peak".
 

TheJediBrah

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As I mentioned earlier, I think Ponting vs Kallis is close and people are allowed to have a differing view on this, especially if there are varying factors favoring either of these players. I wouldn't mark Ponting down solely for his India record. In order to have a healthy discussion though, one will have to do pros and cons of both the careers and not just "Ponting is better because he dominated more than Kallis or had a slightly better peak".
There have been plenty of very healthy discussions, and the difference in scoring rates and style of play is widely accepted as being more than sufficiently decisive
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I think people on here make the claim that batting time is just as important scoring fast often because it sounds like a sound position to take intellectually but it doesn't actually play out that way. I mean, look back to the first Pak vs Oz test. If Pakistan hadn't taken 2 whole days to score 400 they would've had a much better chance of winning. Teams rarely lose from scoring 400 odd in a day and a bit. And yes, clearly batting faster makes your average go down. Peak Ponting was the perfect #3.
You are correct. I am glad you pointed it out.

Slow paced batting, even if you end up scoring more at a higher average, comes with its own costs, unless you have other strokemakers around you.

Azhar Ali has a reasonably good average and is a league below Kallis but has basically the same accumulator approach to batting. And for much of his time as Pakistan's main bat, the team suffered from his conservative brand of being unable to up the pace or switch gears, such as his batting in the test against Oz. Yes, he did a good holding job consistently but that was pretty much it and pretty much the entire batting lineup was accumulators. Pakistan would gladly have had an attacking batter who averaged a point or two less in his place which is why Babar is so refreshing.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Saying players' averages are inflated is overused. Unless you're a Sri Lankan who played a 3rd of your games against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, or you're an English swing bowler with 600 Test wickets who can't bowl without the duke on a cloudy day :ph34r:
Look at the number of batsmen averaging in the 40s or less entering in the 2000s and then ended their careers averaging around 50. Yes, they improved but they definitely got a big bump.
 

TheJediBrah

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Look at the number of batsmen averaging in the 40s or less entering in the 2000s and then ended their careers averaging around 50. Yes, they improved but they definitely got a big bump.
You're right, it was a very good batting period. Definitely worth considering.

In fact one of the main factors that has me leaning towards Waugh in this comparison (though only slightly)
 
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Bolo.

International Captain
I think people on here make the claim that batting time is just as important scoring fast often because it sounds like a sound position to take intellectually but it doesn't actually play out that way. I mean, look back to the first Pak vs Oz test. If Pakistan hadn't taken 2 whole days to score 400 they would've had a much better chance of winning. Teams rarely lose from scoring 400 odd in a day and a bit. And yes, clearly batting faster makes your average go down. Peak Ponting was the perfect #3.
Saying context counts is not an intellectual postition.

Ponting's SR is typically going to be better, assuming no context.

Kallis having a low SR was typically better for his team, assuming we don't add context. It was sometimes worse for his team.

Ponting having a high SR was almost always better for his team. The odd example is the exception that proves the rule.

I'm not sure if Ponting's SR would have been more useful than Kallis's if he had played for RSA... my gut says no, but his ability to change pace based on situation was something Kallis lacked.

I'm 100% that Kallis' SR would have been less useful than Ponting had he played for AUS. I'm also 100% sure we should regard Ponting's ability to pace an innings as better within the context of the team he played for.

Ponting's SR obviously better within his context. I'm a big Kallis fan, and one of the few on this site who watched almost his whole career, but I have no problem admitting his limitations in this regard.

The simple statement that xyx is better that abc cos of a higher SR is crap though. Context. Dean Elgar was mentioned earlier. He's good, not cos he scores heavily (he seldom does), but cos he sticks around, and it's what RSA needs.
 

Coronis

International Coach
I agree, if Ponting had batted in another era he wouldn’t have averaged 50 over his career. Absolute tosser.
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
I tend to view players who benefited from early 2000s to early 2010s as scoring a higher percentage of discount runs. So I view those whose reputations are built solely on this period as slightly suspect and possibly overrated. So yeah, Ponting's record is definitely inflated as well.

However, Ponting from the start to 2008/9 was pretty much seen in world cricket as a better bat than Kallis, so a few more years of longevity are not enough to make Kallis a better batsman for me.
I had a look at how both these great batsmen fared against decent opposition away from home (NZ, SL, India, Pak,Eng, Aus, SA) over their whole career and turns out that Kallis is doing much better than Ponting, by a larger margin than I expected. Thought it was much closer than this.

Kallis - 49.01
Ponting - 41.87


 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I had a look at how both these great batsmen fared against decent opposition away from home (NZ, SL, India, Pak,Eng, Aus, SA) over their whole career and turns out that Kallis is doing much better than Ponting, by a larger margin than I expected. Thought it was much closer than this.

Kallis - 49.01
Ponting - 41.87


Identical number of matches and innings too! This strengthens my conviction that Kallis > Ponting.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I had a look at how both these great batsmen fared against decent opposition away from home (NZ, SL, India, Pak,Eng, Aus, SA) over their whole career and turns out that Kallis is doing much better than Ponting, by a larger margin than I expected. Thought it was much closer than this.

Kallis - 49.01
Ponting - 41.87


The reason for the gap is solely Ponting's poor record in India. Otherwise Ponting does quite better than Kallis in Eng, NZ, and Sri Lanka, and they are both roughly the same in their respective opposition backyards of Aus and SA. So again raw averages can be misleading.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I had a look at how both these great batsmen fared against decent opposition away from home (NZ, SL, India, Pak,Eng, Aus, SA) over their whole career and turns out that Kallis is doing much better than Ponting, by a larger margin than I expected. Thought it was much closer than this.

Kallis - 49.01
Ponting - 41.87


Yes, but Kallis had a SR of 44 and Ponting 59.... so therefore Ponting won more games for his team.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
The reason for the gap is solely Ponting's poor record in India. Otherwise Ponting does quite better than Kallis in Eng, NZ, and Sri Lanka, and they are both roughly the same in their respective opposition backyards of Aus and SA. So again raw averages can be misleading.
Wow.

I like rounded records. I don't like holes, but I also don't like dismissing a bat for a poor record in a single country. Ponting haters do it a lot (somewhat unfairly IMO, cos he was generally good in Asia) due to his India record.

But trying to equivocate the records by dismissing Ponting's failure in India, especially considering the fact that it was the one country his team struggled in is some next level garbage.

When you are trying to handwave away the most important country he played in, where he played a ton of tests, you should really be questioning your motives.
 

Migara

International Coach
I had a look at how both these great batsmen fared against decent opposition away from home (NZ, SL, India, Pak,Eng, Aus, SA) over their whole career and turns out that Kallis is doing much better than Ponting, by a larger margin than I expected. Thought it was much closer than this.

Kallis - 49.01
Ponting - 41.87


During the same time period against same oppositions on away matches Sangakkara averages 50.4, and Dravid averages 47.6 with same metrics.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Getting to not face the best attack in the world is also a bit of a luxury that many people ignore. Tbf, Kallis was a beneficiary of this (especially later on in the Steyn/Morkel and then Philander years too) but not as much as Waugh and Ponting who have the reputation of doing well against good attacks but never actually had to face the best one for most of their careers.
Disagree with this. The attacks from : WI, PAK, and RSA in the 90s, were very much neck and neck with Australia for the best of the 90s. It's only around 2000 or so with the mass retirements that Australia were decidedly the best. Example when Australia toured and won vs WI in 95 their attack was McGrath, Warne, Riefel and Julian. WI had Curtly, Walsh and the Benjamins. No real difference in the strength of the attacks. Ok Australia had Warne but McGrath was still green.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Wow.

I like rounded records. I don't like holes, but I also don't like dismissing a bat for a poor record in a single country. Ponting haters do it a lot (somewhat unfairly IMO, cos he was generally good in Asia) due to his India record.

But trying to equivocate the records by dismissing Ponting's failure in India, especially considering the fact that it was the one country his team struggled in is some next level garbage.

When you are trying to handwave away the most important country he played in, where he played a ton of tests, you should really be questioning your motives.
Where am I handwaving? I am pointing out facts.

Using a blunt raw average to say Kallis is a better away batsman than Ponting is misleading when the only place Kallis has a decisive advantage over Ponting is India because Ponting sucked royally there. I am not excusing Ponting doing badly there and you can downgrade him if you like, but then dont claim Kallis has a more rounded record if Ponting objectively did better in more places and Kallis has his holes as well.

Ponting leads Kallis comfortably in England and Sri Lanka where Kallis also was poor, and in NZ and WI too.

Ponting's record in India is well known but Kallis played more tests in England and averaged 35, and also struggled against Murali in Sri Lanka, and his supporters here dont seem to downgrade him for that or point it out.
 
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