Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
WRONG
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Nintendo
Cricketer Of The Year
I know conway's t20I numbers have been great but really don't think he should be down at 5, doesn't seem like the kinda guy who can go from ball one, Munro would be far better suited there.
TheJediBrah
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Monro Neesham Anderson at least
Doubt Southee or Vettori would make some teams atm either, and even if they would it would be close
Bevan is the best ODI batter
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Munro was world no 1 in T20s for quite a while. Scored 3 T20i 100s.
Neesham - you have a point, but still pretty decent.
Anderson was a beast. 2nd fastest ODI 100 ever also (behind ABDV) and golden arm with the ball.
Southee - 2nd most T20i wickets (111) of anyone in the world behind Shakib.
Vettori - economy rate of 5.70 which is absolutely nuts.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Fair enough. Might be an issue with all the left handers too (Conway, Munro, and later Anderson, Neesham, Vettori). Oram is another lefty as an option in that middle order. Shame that the right handed CDG has really struggled in T20s for some weird reason.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Actually could go Daryl Mitchell instead of Neesham to put in another right hander.
TheJediBrah
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hey I'm not saying they're bad cricketers but I wouldn't call it stacked for an ATG side
If you saw that XI line up in a World T20 tournament you'd think it looks pretty strong but nothing spectacular
Flem274*
123/5
I don't think it's possible to make all time t20 sides without having a discussion about the myths of franchise T20 and why they should not count towards selection in ATG sides with the current weightage they are given.
It's not as good as portrayed. International T20 is far, far higher in class and it is proven time and again when some hype job from the IPL, CPL or Big Bash gets the call up and sucks. Even the internationals in the franchise leagues seem to operate at 80%. Jadeja dropped two total goobers the other day. He doesn't do that for India.
This is not to say franchise leagues don't produce world class players, or that these competitions aren't good at all. The presence of, let's be honest, domestic battlers in every franchise side by the very nature of the competition though means there are always a few players on the field who shouldn't be next to Kohli or ABdV.
Franchise competitions also get Richard Dickinson-esque ideas like 'strike rate is more important than actually scoring runs' and some of the recruitment is a tad special. International sides tend to have better selection (and recruitment in the cases of England and NZ
).
So yeah I weight what guys do in internationals much higher, but within reason. As Trundler said, Chris Gayle is a bit of a mini-WG at T20 and assessing players from the earliest stages of T20 before the modern inability to escape the format does require nuance.
My final probably controversial opinion is I will trust the player who is class in all formats, like Gayle or ABdV, over the T20 specialist for an ATG side. There's generally a reason some specialists are ignored for test or even 50 over cricket and it often becomes apparent when Mitchell Starc or Jasprit Bumrah releases the ball at them. Sometimes it might just be incredible depth (Lockie Ferguson or the entire Indian and South African sides of the last decade) but often its because they suck.
Colin Munro is actually a good example, especially 2019 onwards after he quit red ball cricket and imo got worse. Sure he deserves a spot on results in the NZ all time team, but I'd feel more comfortable with KW or Conway.
It's not as good as portrayed. International T20 is far, far higher in class and it is proven time and again when some hype job from the IPL, CPL or Big Bash gets the call up and sucks. Even the internationals in the franchise leagues seem to operate at 80%. Jadeja dropped two total goobers the other day. He doesn't do that for India.
This is not to say franchise leagues don't produce world class players, or that these competitions aren't good at all. The presence of, let's be honest, domestic battlers in every franchise side by the very nature of the competition though means there are always a few players on the field who shouldn't be next to Kohli or ABdV.
Franchise competitions also get Richard Dickinson-esque ideas like 'strike rate is more important than actually scoring runs' and some of the recruitment is a tad special. International sides tend to have better selection (and recruitment in the cases of England and NZ
).So yeah I weight what guys do in internationals much higher, but within reason. As Trundler said, Chris Gayle is a bit of a mini-WG at T20 and assessing players from the earliest stages of T20 before the modern inability to escape the format does require nuance.
My final probably controversial opinion is I will trust the player who is class in all formats, like Gayle or ABdV, over the T20 specialist for an ATG side. There's generally a reason some specialists are ignored for test or even 50 over cricket and it often becomes apparent when Mitchell Starc or Jasprit Bumrah releases the ball at them. Sometimes it might just be incredible depth (Lockie Ferguson or the entire Indian and South African sides of the last decade) but often its because they suck.
Colin Munro is actually a good example, especially 2019 onwards after he quit red ball cricket and imo got worse. Sure he deserves a spot on results in the NZ all time team, but I'd feel more comfortable with KW or Conway.
Flem274*
123/5
Southee initially was pretty good at T20 but since 2015 WC until very recently was really bad at all white ball cricket. He shouldn't be picked imo. Our refusal to drop him doesn't make him good.
Vettori is the only guy there TJB is slurring, and probably Munro even though I have reservations as above. Vettori is perfect for any situation where someone is forced to attack him. The two allrounders only demand selection for balance. I'd almost just pop in Cairns or Harris on the technicality. We haven't had a really good T20 allrounder yet.
TheJediBrah
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I know Neesham's a lad and we love him but come on even in a regular international team he looks like a bit of a weak spot let alone an ATG team
Munro facing an ATG level attack eg. Starc, Malinga, Rashid would be incredibly painful to watch if it wasn't for the fact that it would be over so quickly
Other thing that I think's slipping past you guys (and I know it's a meme) with players like Munro & Anderson is how much their achievements a reliant on small NZ boundaries. Take Corey Anderson away from NZ and he averages 14 in T20Is, and 15 in ODIs.
You've still got 3 or 4 guys in that team that I would be annoyed about if they were selected in the current Aus team because they're not good enough. And this is supposed to be an ATG team
Munro facing an ATG level attack eg. Starc, Malinga, Rashid would be incredibly painful to watch if it wasn't for the fact that it would be over so quickly
Other thing that I think's slipping past you guys (and I know it's a meme) with players like Munro & Anderson is how much their achievements a reliant on small NZ boundaries. Take Corey Anderson away from NZ and he averages 14 in T20Is, and 15 in ODIs.
You've still got 3 or 4 guys in that team that I would be annoyed about if they were selected in the current Aus team because they're not good enough. And this is supposed to be an ATG team
TheJediBrah
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I was probably being harsh on Vettori tbf
****ing nerd
****ing nerd
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
He's weirdly been terrible at ODIs but still good at T20s. Could also pick Sodhi instead of Southee.
Flem274*
123/5
a) games exist outside Eden Park, Seddon Park and Westpac Stadium.
b) Corey J hits like a cannon. Boundary size was never an issue for him. Getting injured and porky was.
Munro's issue is more he is so easy to yorker. Maybe not at his peak because his eye was incredible, but definitely after giving away red ball cricket he is noticeably **** now he doesn't get asked to bat for several hours at a time.
Neesham would be one of the most at risk players in the current team I agree. We have batsmen and bowlers but no really good allrounders at T20 and the guys below them are better suited to the other formats too. I'd care but it's T20 so meh would rather our allrounders keep developing at cricket.
Flem274*
123/5
Sodhi fails the 'can you play other formats?' test. An ATG side should not be offering up potential lollypops and using long hops as a wicket taking tactic. I'm glad he's made a career out of beating up Australians in the Big Bash because he seems cool but I've never trusted him in international T20 because eventually it's going to crash (and did last WC).
TheJediBrah
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I don't expect you guys to be able to be objective but this is really stretching it thinking Corey Anderson (or half this team) is an above average ATG player
Flem274*
123/5
Good thing I'm not calling him that then, I was outlining why you were wrong about his lack of success. Anderson probably makes the all time side purely for balance reasons, but he's not an ideal selection despite being a talented player who should have been more.
Guptill, McCullum, KW, Ferguson, Bond, Boult and Vettori are the only locks. We spend a lot of T20 games on development players or players good at the other formats like Taylor and Southee who NZ seem determined to make work in T20.
NZC have a strange relationship with T20. I am in no doubt they would almost scrap the other two formats entirely in favour of T20s forever if they could get away with it, but we don't min-max our T20 selections at all but either put out B sides against less financially well off nations then when the big 3 show up drop them all and select the ODI and test team regardless of whether those players are good at T20 or not. It's a different strategy to the WICB who show similar cynicism towards real cricket but actually min-max their T20 side as their premier representative team.
TheJediBrah
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Someone did, which was the point
You've just described almost every team tbh
West Indies are an exception
Flem274*
123/5
Convo got me thinking about Aus T20 tbh
Warner
Watson
Ponting (c)
Smith
Symonds
Maxwell
Gilchrist (wk) (honestly all of the keepers I googled ****ing suck so we're pulling this technicality)
Starc
Hazlewood
Zampa
McGrath (hey he got a couple in, we're pulling this technicality too)
This was a lot harder than it should have been. Australia just don't bother playing probably their best players all that often so you don't get much of an idea if they're any good. Cummins is a much worse white ball bowler than red ball for example but when they don't play him they can't settle on his replacement even if they do ok.
Warner
Watson
Ponting (c)
Smith
Symonds
Maxwell
Gilchrist (wk) (honestly all of the keepers I googled ****ing suck so we're pulling this technicality)
Starc
Hazlewood
Zampa
McGrath (hey he got a couple in, we're pulling this technicality too)
This was a lot harder than it should have been. Australia just don't bother playing probably their best players all that often so you don't get much of an idea if they're any good. Cummins is a much worse white ball bowler than red ball for example but when they don't play him they can't settle on his replacement even if they do ok.
TheJediBrah
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B McCullum (wk)
Guptill
Conway
Williamson
Taylor
Cairns
Harris
Oram
Vettori
Bond
Boult
Mike Hussey and Matt Hayden unlucky to miss out, ATG players
Guptill
Conway
Williamson
Taylor
Cairns
Harris
Oram
Vettori
Bond
Boult
Smith barely gets in the side now, and you've left out Finch who's one of the greatest T20I bats ever. Other than that done pretty well though
Mike Hussey and Matt Hayden unlucky to miss out, ATG players
Nintendo
Cricketer Of The Year
No Finch who's an ATG t20 player is odd, he's better then warner in t20I and that matters more then IPL record, which is the only reason you'de take warner over him. Maxwell is the best #4 across domestic and international t20's, he bats there every time, don't know why smith is in there, but he realistically should play over ponting, punter doesn't have the sample size at 3.
Finch (C)
Watson/Warner
Warner/Watson
Maxwell
Hussey
Symonds
Gilly (wk)
Starc
Haze
Zamps
Mcgrath