How does Sydney Barnes rank among bowlers?

[ankitj]

Based on what is Marshall = Barnes and not McGrath or Hadlee? This is all just arbitrary. For all we know he can be no.1 or no. 11

Like it could be anything but arbitrary for cross era comparisons.

 

[Migara]

Some good footage here

Swing, spin and seam the ball at same time . . .

Utter bollocks. This is why I take descriptions in the past with a ton of salt.

 

[kyear2]

Swing, spin and seam the ball at same time . . .

Utter bollocks. This is why I take descriptions in the past with a ton of salt.

All peer reviews should be taken with a pinch of salt, the further back in time we go, the greater the pinch. The over romaticization of the dawn of the sport does go a bit too far sometimes.

 

[kyear2]

After watching him bowl, he is definitely a spinner.

Don't see how there could be much doubt about that now.

 

[Chubb]

He himself always said he was a spinner. Albeit one who took the new ball and did not appreciate someone else getting it.

He was obviously a cantankerous S-O-B but his attitude is very modern when you think about it. He knew he was good and expected to be paid a commensurate amount.

 

[HookShot]

We often use lack of tests to say why Headley and Pollock can't be rated that highly, at least not top 10.
Then further add in lack of competition for both as neither faced the full possible oppositions of their day. But then scrap both of those arguments for Barnes who played much earlier than Headley and about the same amount of tests of both and seriously inflated his stats vs the minnows of his day.

And again, least we forget, we've never really seen him in action.

Against Australia Barnes took 106 wickets at 21.58 (12 x 5fer and a 10fer).

But his most outstanding stat is ‘Percentage of team wickets taken’ because it puts him up there with other all-time-greats like Richard Hadlee and Muttiah Muralitheran despite being surrounded by other great bowlers - Foster, Lockwood, Hirst, Rhodes, Blythe....

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Players/PlayerOverview.asp?PlayerId=0140


Muttiah Muralitheran = 38.55%
SF Barnes = 38.26%
Richard Hadlee = 34.18%
Bill O’Reilly = 32.07%
Alec Bedser = 30.30%
Dennis Lillee = 29.31%
Shane Warne = 27.33%
Malcolm Marshall = 26.84%
Imran Khan = 26.79%
Glenn McGrath = 24.97%

 

[HookShot]

The following is a pretty good summation of SF Barnes’ bowling method.

I particularly like the sentence,

‘Fielders at mid-off and mid-on reported hearing the snap of his fingers as he bowled’

as it gives a good idea as to the amount of effort he put into spinning the ball.

‘The patented Barnes Ball was the leg-break delivered at pace and without rotation of the wrist. It was at its most potent on the matting tracks of South Africa when, at the age of 40, he took 49 wickets in four games, still a record for a Test series. Fielders at mid-off and mid-on reported hearing the snap of his fingers as he bowled, the batsmen unable to read which way the ball would break. In that respect he was the Ramadhin or Muralitharan of his day. But whereas they were spinners using a front-on action and freakish articulation of the arm, SF’s spin was derived purely from the twist exerted by his fingers rather than through leverage of the wrist or elbow. In his opinion the cutter, delivered when the bowler drags his fingers down the side of the ball, was a much inferior cousin.’

Sydney Barnes: Insurmountable Bowler But Deeply Difficult Man | Wisden

Sydney Barnes is one of the greatest bowlers in history, but he was a complex character. Peter Gibbs recalled a day in his company in the Wisden Almanack.

wisden.com

 

[TheJediBrah]

Modern day club B-Grader

 

[Chubb]

I wonder if the best way to imagine his bowling is Shahid Afridi's pace with Warne's accuracy and drift? They may not have understood the difference between swing and drift back then due to lack of slow-mo etc.

Reading that article, struck by how many Professionals resented the Amateurs and Gentlemen. Barnes was not alone in his attitude towards them.

 

[HookShot]

I wonder if the best way to imagine his bowling is Shahid Afridi's pace with Warne's accuracy and drift? They may not have understood the difference between swing and drift back then due to lack of slow-mo etc.

Reading that article, struck by how many Professionals resented the Amateurs and Gentlemen. Barnes was not alone in his attitude towards them.

Barnes learned how to make the ball swing at pace while imparting high revs at the same time from Monty Noble who practiced swinging the ball around wooden stakes hammered into the pitch.

Both Barnes and Monty Noble were using basic physics (Magnus Effect)....

 

[Chubb]

Barnes learned how to make the ball swing at pace while imparting high revs at the same time from Monty Noble who practiced swinging the ball around wooden stakes hammered into the pitch.

Both Barnes and Monty Noble were using basic physics (Magnus Effect)....

That's interesting, I am no physicist. Bart King supposedly learned some of his swing bowling technique from baseball which presumably used the same forces.

 

[Coronis]

Against Australia Barnes took 106 wickets at 21.58 (12 x 5fer and a 10fer).

But his most outstanding stat is ‘Percentage of team wickets taken’ because it puts him up there with other all-time-greats like Richard Hadlee and Muttiah Muralitheran despite being surrounded by other great bowlers - Foster, Lockwood, Hirst, Rhodes, Blythe....

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Players/PlayerOverview.asp?PlayerId=0140


Muttiah Muralitheran = 38.55%
SF Barnes = 38.26%
Richard Hadlee = 34.18%
Bill O’Reilly = 32.07%
Alec Bedser = 30.30%
Dennis Lillee = 29.31%
Shane Warne = 27.33%
Malcolm Marshall = 26.84%
Imran Khan = 26.79%
Glenn McGrath = 24.97%

fwiw Steyn = 28.64 and Ambrose = 26.19

 

[Migara]

I wonder if the best way to imagine his bowling is Shahid Afridi's pace with Warne's accuracy and drift? They may not have understood the difference between swing and drift back then due to lack of slow-mo etc.

Reading that article, struck by how many Professionals resented the Amateurs and Gentlemen. Barnes was not alone in his attitude towards them.

It is not humanly possible to get Afridi's pace and Warne's turn unless you hit cracks and foot marks regularly. Physics have not changed since the birth of cricket I am afraid.

 

[HookShot]

That's interesting, I am no physicist. Bart King supposedly learned some of his swing bowling technique from baseball which presumably used the same forces.

Monty Noble also learned how to swing the ball from ‘visiting baseball players’.

In the second England innings, on a wearing Melbourne wicket, Noble ran in and bowled deliveries that swerved dangerously. In a grip borrowed from the visiting American baseball players, Noble pinched the seam between his thumb and forefinger. The long, strong fingers managed to control the ball this way. The result was a medium-paced out-swinger that carried the threat of cutting back off the seam.

Noble picked up 6 for 49, as Australia won by an innings, once again beating Ranji with his break-back.

Monty Noble: Australia’s great all-rounder; supreme captain

Monty Noble was easily one of the best all-rounders produced by Australia.

www.cricketcountry.com

 

[Chubb]

It is not humanly possible to get Afridi's pace and Warne's turn unless you hit cracks and foot marks regularly. Physics have not changed since the birth of cricket I am afraid.

Not sure he turned it that much though, and remember he played on uncovered wickets. He turned it just enough, got drift or swing, hurried batsmen and was extremely accurate.

 

[Migara]

Against Australia Barnes took 106 wickets at 21.58 (12 x 5fer and a 10fer).

But his most outstanding stat is ‘Percentage of team wickets taken’ because it puts him up there with other all-time-greats like Richard Hadlee and Muttiah Muralitheran despite being surrounded by other great bowlers - Foster, Lockwood, Hirst, Rhodes, Blythe....

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Players/PlayerOverview.asp?PlayerId=0140


Muttiah Muralitheran = 38.55%
SF Barnes = 38.26%
Richard Hadlee = 34.18%
Bill O’Reilly = 32.07%
Alec Bedser = 30.30%
Dennis Lillee = 29.31%
Shane Warne = 27.33%
Malcolm Marshall = 26.84%
Imran Khan = 26.79%
Glenn McGrath = 24.97%

During the same time period the overall bowling average everyone was 25.7. Barnes averaged 16.9
Compare that to 30.1 odd at Lakers time who averaged 21.2, or 33.2 odd during Murali's time who averaged 22.7

 

[Migara]

Barnes learned how to make the ball swing at pace while imparting high revs at the same time from Monty Noble who practiced swinging the ball around wooden stakes hammered into the pitch.

Both Barnes and Monty Noble were using basic physics (Magnus Effect)....

This is drift. Not swing. Swing occurs due to Bernoulli effect.

 

[HookShot]

It is not humanly possible to get Afridi's pace and Warne's turn unless you hit cracks and foot marks regularly. Physics have not changed since the birth of cricket I am afraid.

Who said that Barnes bowled at the same pace all the time?

When opening the bowling he would sacrifice turn for pace; and as the ball and pitch started to wear he would ‘give the ball some air’ as it were.

That is, drop his speed from 70mph (Bedser) to 60mph (Swann).

 

[Migara]

Monty Noble also learned how to swing the ball from ‘visiting baseball players’.

Monty Noble: Australia’s great all-rounder; supreme captain

Monty Noble was easily one of the best all-rounders produced by Australia.

www.cricketcountry.com

He wouldn't have learned a thing though. Cricket ball has a seam and swing originates from the seam.

 

[HookShot]

I think that there is enough evidence to suggest that the slow and medium bowlers of the Pre-WW1 era were just as skilful and precise as spin bowlers from the modern era.

I doubt very much that fast bowling was any where near as good as it is now due to the intensive training and physical workouts that a fast bowler like Dale Steyn or Patrick Cummins would have to go through.

But slow/medium spin bowling is more of a craft than an exercise in bio-mechanics.