How does Sydney Barnes rank among bowlers?

[Nikhil99.99]

In a thread I did earlier,Barnes got nearly 70 percent of votes in 3rd greatest cricketer pre-bradman era.So,how does CW rank S.F Barnes as a bowler?

 

[kyear2]

It really was a different game back then, hardly comparable to what we call cricket today. We don't have any comprehensive footage of what of how he bowled.

Even with the adjustment for era his average vs the only competent team of said era isn't that special. Really don't think we should go back past the mid to late 30' when comparing or ranking players because of how the much the game has changed and the relative lack of quality opposition there was for the outstanding players of that time.

That's just my opinion of course

 

[subshakerz]

Not a lot of tests to judge someone.

 

[ankitj]

Murali > Marshall >= Barnes

 

[Coronis]

Easily the best 50 year old bowler there ever was

 

[Prince EWS]

12th.

 

[HookShot]

SF Barnes was probably the greatest bowler of his era and extremely skilful. Maybe the most skilful bowler of all time.

Just where you place SF Barnes in the pantheon of great bowlers depends on how much value you place on these things.

Barnes, "square shouldered as a tailor's model" as Alan Ross put it in his poem, is said to be by men who saw them both to have been around the same speed as Alec Bedser, which suggests he was bowling between 70 and 80mph. These days Swann is reckoned to bowl quickly for a spinner, and his average speed is around 60mph. Barnes's stock delivery was a fast leg break that swerved one way in the air and then span back the other off the pitch. He married this with a fast off break that did the exact reverse, a ball he was taught by the Australian Monty Noble, another early master of spin-swerve bowling. Barnes's particular release meant that the two were difficult to distinguish. He did not unfurl the wrist for his leg break, but rather ****ed it backwards and rotated it, as though he was, as Rajan says, "unscrewing a light bulb".

 

[Migara]

Barnes's stock delivery was a fast leg break that swerved one way in the air and then span back the other off the pitch. He married this with a fast off break that did the exact reverse, a ball he was taught by the Australian Monty Noble, another early master of spin-swerve bowling

Nothing special. This was the MO of Ajantha Mendis till he was found out. He bowled between 60-65mph. Barnes may have been touch faster, because from all accounts he was a taller man than Mendis. Add the crappy surfaces Barnes bowled, I'd say he comes down to "great bowlers: level from "the best ever". The ingenuity he showed with his skills puts him right up there with the best.

 

[Line and Length]

Wisden included him in their ATG Test Team which was based on ICC rankings where Barnes is ranked number 1.

Sydney Barnes
All-time bowling ranking: 1st (932 points)
27 Tests, 189 wickets, 16.43 average
One of the greatest seam bowlers to grace the game, Sydney Barnes, too, did not play a lot of international cricket, but built an incredible legacy nonetheless. He was able to register 24 five-fors and seven 10-wicket hauls in just 27 Tests, becoming the fastest bowler to 150 Test wickets. Barnes picked up 49 wickets in just four Tests in the 1913 Ashes, which remains the record for most scalps claimed by a bowler in a Test series. A few months later, he returned figures of 14-144 against South Africa at the age of 40 years and 301 days, becoming the oldest player to pick up a 10-wicket haul at the time.

 

[subshakerz]

Murali > Marshall >= Barnes

Based on what is Marshall = Barnes and not McGrath or Hadlee? This is all just arbitrary. For all we know he can be no.1 or no. 11

 

[subshakerz]

Nothing special. This was the MO of Ajantha Mendis till he was found out. He bowled between 60-65mph. Barnes may have been touch faster, because from all accounts he was a taller man than Mendis. Add the crappy surfaces Barnes bowled, I'd say he comes down to "great bowlers: level from "the best ever". The ingenuity he showed with his skills puts him right up there with the best.

If he was faster and could spin it both ways, that would have made all the difference. It would be unplayable.

Imagine someone regularly bowling this type of Jaffa at 125km/h

 

[cnerd123]

Top 3 IMO, but I'm a bit of a romantic when it comes to rating him.

No doubt he was an incredibly effective and talented bowler, and the accounts of what he was able to do are all fantastic. Shame he was such a difficult character that he couldn't build up a large enough body of work to demonstrate it. Just 27 Tests and 719 FC wickets is underwhelming for a man of his reported skills.

A FC strike rate of 43.8 is phenomenal, very few bowlers have taken more wickets than him at a better rate.

 

[Chubb]

I think he has to be in the conversation but it’s very hard to compare the era he played in with today or even the 60s. The way first hand accounts talk about him he must have been truly exceptional.

 

[The Sean]

Wisden included him in their ATG Test Team which was based on ICC rankings where Barnes is ranked number 1.

Sydney Barnes
All-time bowling ranking: 1st (932 points)
27 Tests, 189 wickets, 16.43 average
One of the greatest seam bowlers to grace the game, Sydney Barnes, too, did not play a lot of international cricket, but built an incredible legacy nonetheless. He was able to register 24 five-fors and seven 10-wicket hauls in just 27 Tests, becoming the fastest bowler to 150 Test wickets. Barnes picked up 49 wickets in just four Tests in the 1913 Ashes, which remains the record for most scalps claimed by a bowler in a Test series. A few months later, he returned figures of 14-144 against South Africa at the age of 40 years and 301 days, becoming the oldest player to pick up a 10-wicket haul at the time.

Who wrote this, do you know? Because Barnes' 49-wicket series came against South Africa, not in the Ashes, and anyone writing an article such as this should know that.

 

[Migara]

If he was faster and could spin it both ways, that would have made all the difference. It would be unplayable.

Imagine someone regularly bowling this type of Jaffa at 125km/h

125k would have been his seam ups. None of Underwood, Chandra or Kumble (same build as Barnes, same height) bowled spinners at the that pace. They had very quick straight balls at that pace. Afridi, witha 130 - 135k straight ball was consistently below 115k with his leg breaks. Now Afridi was a real monster and probably one of the strongest ever cricketers to play. Even him couldn't get a turning leg break to go that fast.

 

[subshakerz]

125k would have been his seam ups. None of Underwood, Chandra or Kumble (same build as Barnes, same height) bowled spinners at the that pace. They had very quick straight balls at that pace. Afridi, witha 130 - 135k straight ball was consistently below 115k with his leg breaks. Now Afridi was a real monster and probably one of the strongest ever cricketers to play. Even him couldn't get a turning leg break to go that fast.

Sorry, 125 was the speed of that Johnson offcutter, using that as an example of what a faster spinner would look like.

 

[kyear2]

We often use lack of tests to say why Headley and Pollock can't be rated that highly, at least not top 10.
Then further add in lack of competition for both as neither faced the full possible oppositions of their day. But then scrap both of those arguments for Barnes who played much earlier than Headley and about the same amount of tests of both and seriously inflated his stats vs the minnows of his day.

And again, least we forget, we've never really seen him in action.

 

[cnerd123]

Some good footage here

 

[Nikhil99.99]

Some good footage here

Nice footage .I had seen it 3-4 times before and still watched it.Some good opinion from players like Rhodes,hobbs ,Constantine and benaud.S.F would be like 50 when he played with Constantine.The biggest question for me is was he definitely better than Bill O’Reilly.O’Reilly was regarded comfortably ahead of grimmett,verity and laker.If he was which people who saw him said then S.F might be the best bowler of all time.Hobbs had O’Reilly and Barnes at equal no.1.The 2 were undisputed top 2 best bowler of all time till 1948 and probably till 1970 Imo.I think barnes is definite top 10 best bowler of all time and might be a top 3 or no.1.
I have S.F in my top 5-6 and in absolute top tier.

 

[subshakerz]

After watching him bowl, he is definitely a spinner.