England (and Wales) gloom, doom and recriminations thread

[Blenkinsop]

What is the evidence for saying that Broad and Anderson get to pick and choose? Pretty sure both of them were absolutely gutted not to be selected for the first Ashes test.

 

[Spark]

What is the evidence for saying that Broad and Anderson get to pick and choose? Pretty sure both of them were absolutely gutted not to be selected for the first Ashes test.

None whatsoever.

I genuinely cannot think of any obvious comparison or equivalent to the push/desire by people to push Anderson and Broad into retirement in recent times. This isn't a case of "great player, but hanging on due to past glories and no longer really delivering, and being held onto out of misplaced hope and loyalty". Anderson and Broad are still, quite plainly, England's best bowlers, with exemplary records in the last few years, and both have clearly indicated they want to keep playing, and both are still performing at a high level. No, they won't play every single game, but that's okay. Robinson, Archer, Wood, Stone etc will get plenty of games anyway.

 

[Flem274*]

As a known Anderson "not an ATG" CWer, I can confirm Anderson's last 12 months have been good. It isn't his fault the English selectors are insane.

Assuming the English scum remember spinners can take wickets in England, fitting 4 into 3 is actually their one nice problem (Anderson, Broad, Robinson, Wood).

Broad being side eyed I can kinda accept since he has been up and down, but he has also been managed just as terribly.

As soon as England trust their pace depth and select test sides on what's in front of them rather than by committee 6 months prior looking towards the Ashes 2 years later, they might find a little joy.

 

[Spark]

Their fast bowlers are literally fine anyway. No sane observer could look at the last 18 months and think "hmm, it's the fast bowlers who are the problem". They just need to pick the best ones who are available (and not cooked) at any given point then turn their attention to the litany of actual problems with the team.

 

[Cubiscus]

Looking forward to next summer and not being close to county cricket I'd start building with:

1. TBC
2. Crawley
3. TBC
4. Root - not as captain, we need new on field leadership and selection
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Foakes - with a long run
8. Wood
9. TBC
10. Broad - temporary captain
11. Anderson - still our best bowler

I'd include Archer and Stone but not sure they'll be available.

 

[WICFan]

Is Ben Brown a decent wicketkeeper? Any reason(s) why he doesn't come into the conversation of a call-up?

 

[WICFan]

Their fast bowlers are literally fine anyway. No sane observer could look at the last 18 months and think "hmm, it's the fast bowlers who are the problem". They just need to pick the best ones who are available (and not cooked) at any given point then turn their attention to the litany of actual problems with the team.

Was only a month ago the captain was using them as scapegoats.

 

[theegyptian]

It's not all bad. You can spend most of the winter watching English talent doing well and gaining valuable experience in T10 and T20 across the globe. It's great for a lot of English players. They are getting a lot of earning and playing opportunities that they never would have got in the past. ODI and T20 side should remain strong as a result.

Pretty bad for the test side though given the incentives out there right now to play T20, and the lack thereoff for first class/test. ECB will have to do something to re-address that balance.

I think there has to be a degree of context put to the test displays. They've lost a lot in the last year but they are to the 3 best teams in the world. The ODI and T20 teams remains strong. Honestly I don't really see it as a low point for English cricket. Maybe because I don't dismiss ODI and T20 cricket as inconsequential as some in the English game do (or at least they do when England are losing).

 

[Lillian Thomson]

It's too easy to just blame a concentration on ODI's for the failure of the Test team. There wasn't a drastic change in the domestic game. They just started picking one day specialists and playing a more aggressive game instead of picking the Test openers to lay a platform and "doubling the score after 30 overs". The actual neglect of the County Championship only started because they wanted to squeeze The Hundred in.

 

[Xix2565]

Their fast bowlers are literally fine anyway. No sane observer could look at the last 18 months and think "hmm, it's the fast bowlers who are the problem". They just need to pick the best ones who are available (and not cooked) at any given point then turn their attention to the litany of actual problems with the team.

I mean could a correctly selected bowling lineup this Ashes have managed something close to what Australia managed? I get batting for England is a massive hole but it's really not like the bowlers have done that well to escape some blame either (when they weren't being run into the ground for nothing or not picked when they should've have been).

 

[Pup Clarke]

I think Sam Cook could do a job for England if he was given a chance. There's an obsession that the seamers have to be bowling over 140km/h. It isn't necessary - this is another one of those "we need to plan for the next Ashes" pieces of bull****. Cook has incredible bowling stats and he can swing the ball and he can put it where he wants to put it. Get him in early and give him a run and he can pick up more skills along the way - much like Anderson did. He's only 24 - plenty to build on there in my opinion.

100%. Guy looks like a class bowler with really good skill. Brisk enough. Bowls that fullish length and consistently moves the ball either way to challenge both edges of the bat. That's a really good call

 

[Spark]

It's not all bad. You can spend most of the winter watching English talent doing well and gaining valuable experience in T10 and T20 across the globe. It's great for a lot of English players. They are getting a lot of earning and playing opportunities that they never would have got in the past. ODI and T20 side should remain strong as a result.

Pretty bad for the test side though given the incentives out there right now to play T20, and the lack thereoff for first class/test. ECB will have to do something to re-address that balance.

I think there has to be a degree of context put to the test displays. They've lost a lot in the last year but they are to the 3 best teams in the world. The ODI and T20 teams remains strong. Honestly I don't really see it as a low point for English cricket. Maybe because I don't dismiss ODI and T20 cricket as inconsequential as some in the English game do (or at least they do when England are losing).

The success of the ODI and T20 sides is proof enough that it really shouldn't take that much to cobble together six talented long-form batsmen. The idea that limited overs and Test batsmanship are mutually exclusive seems a uniquely English delusion born of snobbishness against "hit and giggle cricket"; the fact is that cricket, regardless of format, is a skill based game and it's way way easier to teach a batsman who already has the "very good at hitting fast moving leather object with wooden stick" bit down pat the nuances of long format batting than the other way around, especially if the innate drive to represent England at the highest level is still as powerful a motivator as it once was.

 

[Spark]

Well, this thread is for gloom, doom, and recriminations and that last category is filling up fast:

'Fat shaming', drinking culture and not enough talking: the inside story of England's Ashes disaster

By losing 4-0 for a second time, Joe Root has taken the title of being the first England captain to lose two Ashes series in Australia

www.telegraph.co.uk

Some personal highlights:

The bubble made everything harder when it came to organising nets and matches for those in Queensland. England’s only warm-up game descended into farce at the Ian Healy Oval, a nice club ground but lacking facilities for international sport. The scoreboard failed, the team analyst could only film for one day before giving up due to a lack of technical support and what was supposed to be a first-class fixture descended into middle practice with players batting three or even four times.

No sensible judgements could be drawn, but on the back of this game England picked Ollie Pope ahead of Jonny Bairstow for the first Test. Rain did not help, of course, but having agreed such a tight schedule, England were always hostages to fortune. Rain forced bowlers to try and attune to Australia indoors, instead of on the rock-hard pitches, and batsmen had to become accustomed to the bounce against bowling machines, and coaches with dog throwers. Why England, so badly undercooked, then batted first in Brisbane is a question that will haunt Root and Silverwood.

Even selection away from the Test team was in chaos. On the first day of the Gabba Test, England Lions were due to play Australia A. England could have used it to give time in the middle to Jonny Bairstow, Dan Lawrence and Zak Crawley. Instead Mo Bobat, the performance director who is in charge of the Lions, picked the team 48 hours before the game. England only realised their error when they saw that Australia A included Test squad players Usman Khawaja, Micheal Neser and Scott Boland. All would later play in the series and make an impression, while England were left to pick from players who had played no red-ball cricket.

Selection was made mainly by the coach and captain but also chief scout, James Taylor, back home in England, with Bobat contributing. Players were frustrated that Taylor, who was not even in Australia, could have so much influence from thousands of miles away.

One player refused to take part in the skin-fold test - a gauge of body fat - and, when pressed, accused England of trying to fat shame him. The test was never carried out.

When England had the chance for a day off in Hobart, Robinson went and played golf even though he was troubled by a shoulder problem that threatened his chances of playing, with Craig Overton preparing to play in his place. Robinson declared himself fit on the morning of the match but then went down with a back spasm. England needed to be tougher and the medics overrule him but Silverwood and Root needed a win and Robinson is a good bowler.

There were also concerns over a drinking culture within the whole touring party and whether restrictions were loosened too much in Brisbane in the weeks leading up to the series and before the Covid bubble was tightened when families arrived.

Seeking solace in the glass is not unusual on Ashes tours and even more so in bubbles, which have a two-fold effect. The players have drinks laid on in the hotels which are at least away from camera phones and the public, but on the rare days they are allowed out they are more likely to go wild. It is certain that the midnight curfew introduced by Andrew Strauss will return when Covid bubbles go, the players failing to do enough to convince the management they can be fully trusted again.

Some senior players felt left out of discussions over tactics and another was angered to learn he had been dropped after reading it in the press. Another felt he had not been given enough time to prepare for a Test, learning only 48 hours before that he would be playing.

Yet there were also issues around players not taking enough individual responsibility. Before Brisbane, Burns was asked if he had thought about facing the first ball of the series. “Nah, not really", was his reply.

That lack of forethought showed as he was bowled around his legs by Mitchell Starc. Ultimately, Burns lost his place, not just because of his form, but also his failure to speak more regularly in meetings and bring his experience to bear.

And when communication was clear, it still backfired. After the Adelaide Test there was a lengthy team meeting in which Silverwood made the batsmen watch footage of their dismissals, but the exchanges became heated as batsmen and bowlers lined up against each other.

In the same meeting, Jos Buttler told players they had to be patient at the crease, but he was out in the next Test hitting to deep-square leg on the stroke of tea. It summed up his tour.

Silverwood in particular comes across as kind of useless, and the team management - Giles, Bobat, Taylor etc - come across as broadly inept. However, ymmv, grain of salt etc, as this is clearly players venting to favoured journos and getting their side of the story in the press asap. This is more hearsay but beyond Robinson, Overton and Lawrence are apparently also targets for ire internally for not exactly appearing committed to the cause.

I expect @Gnske to have a field day with this.

 

[Flem274*]

Haha Burns

He's gonna be eviscerated for that but it's not a big deal tbh. Some people do best when they're not wasting mental energy playing the game before it happens.

 

[wpdavid]

One of the great certainties when it comes to cricket is that there’s always someone else out there

Rory Burns is 31, has played 32 tests and averages 30 with the bat

IMO, he will need a dramatic technical overhaul (grip, backlift & footwork) to improve those numbers

IIRC, he’s also a primary offender when it comes to dropped catches

That’s a pretty low bar when it comes to looking for options

I tend to agree. If anything, I am less sympathetic towards his catching than his batting. And that's before you factor in his annual run-outs. If he does play in the WI, that must surely be his last chance. But, without checking I would guess that his returns are actually deteriorating. I dread to think what he's averaged since the start of the Pakistan series in 2020.

 

[Spark]

It illustrates the Broad and Anderson debate even more. The last thing this team needs is to lose some of the few highly experienced professionals they actually have, even if they are a pain to put up with at times because of how demanding they can be.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Well, this thread is for gloom, doom, and recriminations and that last category is filling up fast:

'Fat shaming', drinking culture and not enough talking: the inside story of England's Ashes disaster

By losing 4-0 for a second time, Joe Root has taken the title of being the first England captain to lose two Ashes series in Australia

www.telegraph.co.uk

Some personal highlights:


Silverwood in particular comes across as kind of useless, and the team management - Giles, Bobat, Taylor etc - come across as broadly inept. However, ymmv, grain of salt etc, as this is clearly players venting to favoured journos and getting their side of the story in the press asap. This is more hearsay but beyond Robinson, Overton and Lawrence are apparently also targets for ire internally for not exactly appearing committed to the cause.

I expect @Gnske to have a field day with this.

England have been fairly bad and clearly on a downward trajectory for a few years now, but this is the first tour I think where it's been quite so apparent that the squad morale is awful. The players have been clearly unhappy with bubble life while that has been a thing, but I never got the sense before that anyone other than Broad and (to a lesser extent) Anderson have been unhappy in the dressing room under Root's captaincy. But yeah, doesn't seem like it's in a good place at all right now.

 

[Spark]

England have been fairly bad and clearly on a downward trajectory for a few years now, but this is the first tour I think where it's been quite so apparent that the squad morale is awful. The players have been clearly unhappy with bubble life while that has been a thing, but I never got the sense before that anyone other than Broad and (to a lesser extent) Anderson have been unhappy in the dressing room under Root's captaincy. But yeah, doesn't seem like it's in a good place at all right now.

I mean it's true but there are examples of sporting teams who manage to take the difficulties of bubble life and turn them into a sporting positive by using it to forge a stronger team spirit and team culture (which is probably much more an explanation for why India won here last summer than whatever the ECB thought was the reason India won last summer). However that takes really strong, decisive leadership that has the respect and trust of the players but can also actually enforce team-wide discipline both on and off-field, clearly something Silverwood and co (and by extension Root) are incapable of. Seriously, that Robinson anecdote...

 

[wpdavid]

I think there has to be a degree of context put to the test displays. They've lost a lot in the last year but they are to the 3 best teams in the world. ....

OTOH, they lost to a NZ side that was resting some of their best players, they lost a test to India because they couldn't dismiss a bunch of tailenders who averaged close to single figures, and they have just been completely obliterated by the third ranked team in the world, not just beaten.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

I mean it's true but there are examples of sporting teams who manage to take the difficulties of bubble life and turn them into a sporting positive by using it to forge a stronger team spirit and team culture (which is probably much more an explanation for why India won here last summer than whatever the ECB thought was the reason India won last summer). However that takes really strong, decisive leadership that has the respect and trust of the players but can also actually enforce team-wide discipline both on and off-field, clearly something Silverwood and co (and by extension Root) are incapable of. Seriously, that Robinson anecdote...

Yeah I agree with you. I meant above that prior to this series the only indications we had about poor morale behind the scenes were generic rumblings about the players not enjoying bubble restrictions, but now it's clear that that was just shorthand for a much deeper level of discontent with the whole current set up.

Your point about leadership I think is spot on: the white ball sides seem much happier where Morgan obviously calls the shots rather than Silverwood.