Will this be England's worst ever 5-0 defeat in Australia?

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah but what I'm saying is that you're basically assuming that Carey would have made 0. The bloke can bat! Even if he gets to his FC average, that still puts them around 160 and if there's one thing we've learned, you reaaaaally don't want to face a fresh Australian attack with an hour to go before stumps on a lively pitch. Even if you do have a small first innings lead.

This is even before we get to what actually happened when Australia bowled. Yes, it was a freak event to end all freak events. But it still happened, and in the end Australia won by, what, nine wickets? So no, I don't accept for one moment that Paine's innings was the one thing separating Australia from a loss in that game.

It was the single most crucial innings in that game. This is utterly laughable.

 

[Spark]

It was the single most crucial innings in that game. This is utterly laughable.

Was it an innings so brilliant that it couldn't possibly have been played by anyone else? Once again you're acting like it was obviously true that Carey would have gotten 0.

 

[Xix2565]

Was it an innings so brilliant that it couldn't possibly have been played by anyone else? Once again you're acting like it was obviously true that Carey would have gotten 0.

No one else was really looking like playing one though? Smith lost his hands and Marnus needed a whole cat's bunch of lives to get to 40 something. Paine's innings and a freakish bowling performance is what won the Adelaide Test, and Paine rightly got the MoM for even keeping them in touch.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Was it an innings so brilliant that it couldn't possibly have been played by anyone else? Once again you're acting like it was obviously true that Carey would have gotten 0.

?

You made the argument that the biggest difference in Australia's fortunes has been replacing Paine with Carey as keeper and with Cummins/Smith as captain. Carey's 97 runs in 3 tests with one dropped catch is a performance Paine surely couldn;t have replicated?

And yeah, I think Paine's innings basically was the difference between the sides in that game. Im not sure Carey wouldve done that, no. Just assuming he'd have played a great knock is not something I'm sure I'd do.

 

[stephen]

Wasn't Gilchrist a no. 6 batsman?

Always batted 7.

 

[Spark]

?

You made the argument that the biggest difference in Australia's fortunes has been replacing Paine with Carey as keeper and with Cummins/Smith as captain. Carey's 97 runs in 3 tests with one dropped catch is a performance Paine surely couldn;t have replicated?

Paine dropped, what, five catches at Sydney and Brisbane? All of a similar type too and all catches that Carey seems to have no problems with technically (his issue is specifically low catches to his right when he gets wrong-footed). Pretty important catches, too.

As for captaincy I've said here repeatedly that Paine's leadership was a big factor in turning the Aus team into less than the sum of its parts as a cricketing team. Like, we saw how he so obviously cracked under pressure at Sydney.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Man I hope Paine's back as captain for BG 2024 tour . Indian legend tbh.

 

[Spark]

And yeah, I think Paine's inninngs basically was the difference between the sides in that game. Im not sure Carey wouldve done that, no. Just assuming he'd have played a great knock is not something I'm sure I'd do.

It was an excellent innings for sure. But the difference between the sides is that one team put up 36 in the third innings, as dumbly straightforward as it sounds. Everything else is very, very much secondary to that.

Yes, it was extremely lucky, a total freak event. But it's still what actually happened.

 

[Shri]

Man I hope Paine's back as captain for BG 2024 tour . Indian legend tbh.

we don't need 12 players playing for us to beat their ass again

 

[honestbharani]

Paine dropped, what, five catches at Sydney and Brisbane? All of a similar type too and all catches that Carey seems to have no problems with technically (his issue is specifically low catches to his right when he gets wrong-footed). Pretty important catches, too.

As for captaincy I've said here repeatedly that Paine's leadership was a big factor in turning the Aus team into less than the sum of its parts as a cricketing team. Like, we saw how he so obviously cracked under pressure at Sydney.

There is gonna be gold to be had here after the SC tours by Australia and after RSA show up here next summer.

The point is simple. Paine kept u from being 2-0 down to us going into Sydney. His keeping was poor enough to blame Sydney on him but the Gabba was not due to him. If anything, his many runs that series consistently kept u guys from being bowled out for lol scores.

 

[Xix2565]

Paine dropped, what, five catches at Sydney and Brisbane? All of a similar type too and all catches that Carey seems to have no problems with technically (his issue is specifically low catches to his right when he gets wrong-footed). Pretty important catches, too.

As for captaincy I've said here repeatedly that Paine's leadership was a big factor in turning the Aus team into less than the sum of its parts as a cricketing team. Like, we saw how he so obviously cracked under pressure at Sydney.

You really think Carey cannot drop catches like those or that Cummins can't be under pressure when Pant decides he wants to chase down 400 and murder Lyon live on stage? Like sure, the team has changed quite a bit, but I don't suddenly buy that they're perfect now or that they couldn't do what they did in BG 2020/21 in terms of not performing at their best.

 

[Spark]

There is gonna be gold to be had here after the SC tours by Australia and after RSA show up here next summer.

The point is simple. Paine kept u from being 2-0 down to us going into Sydney. His keeping was poor enough to blame Sydney on him but the Gabba was not due to him. If anything, his many runs that series consistently kept u guys from being bowled out for lol scores.

He dropped Pant at Brisbane, if you recall (or it might have been a missed stumping - or perhaps even both). And nah that's really overstating his consistency with the bat; he scored nothing at Melbourne and was very much peripheral at Sydney where he mostly just was not out at the other end while Green went beserk. Brisbane first innings I'll give you.

You really think Carey cannot drop catches like those or that Cummins can't be under pressure when Pant decides he wants to chase down 400 and murder Lyon live on stage? Like sure, the team has changed quite a bit, but

I think Paine is a highly mediocre keeper against good spin bowling and that Carey is better, yes. I don't think this is a particularly controversial thing to say...?

And you're forgetting what happened at Sydney. Pant's innings isn't what cracked him. Ashwin and Vihari blocking everything was what cracked him, and he started chatting nonsense in the stump mic/doing weird things with the bowling changes and tactics.

And to be absolutely clear, this is not hindsight bias talking one bit. You can go back and read those threads and see me and others saying pretty much exactly the same thing about Paine during and immediately after that series.

I don't suddenly buy that they're perfect now or that they couldn't do what they did in BG 2020/21 in terms of not performing at their best.

Good thing I said nothing of the sort, then.

 

[Shri]

that "missed" stumping was a myth

pant's bat was pretty much down before the ball could have been taken and the stumps broken if it was caught

was not even a half chance

 

[OverratedSanity]

Let's not forget Carey watched that edge from Butler go by him in the second test and didnt even bother going for it. Butler almost made Australia pay for it by surviving as long as he did and if the opposition wasnt as bad as England are that would've been seriously costly and we arent sitting here pretending Australia are suddenly way better.

 

[Spark]

Let's not forget Carey watched that edge from Butler go by him in the second test and didnt even bother going for it. Butler almost made Australia pay for it by surviving as long as he did and if the opposition wasnt as bad as England are that would've been seriously costly and we arent sitting here pretending Australia are suddenly way better.

Right but that's a specific technical thing he has with regards to left-arm over. Against Lyon he's looked very, very good.

 

[Spark]

Shami got injured

I am going to go out on a limb and say that Shami getting injured had no impact whatsoever on the result of the Adelaide (repeat: Adelaide) Test match.

 

[Xix2565]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that Shami getting injured had no impact whatsoever on the result of the Adelaide (repeat: Adelaide) Test match.

We lost a bowler ffs. Just because we won in Melbourne losing Umesh and Brisbane carrying a hobbled Saini doesn't suddenly mean Shami's loss in bowling Australia out isn't meaningful.

 

[honestbharani]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that Shami getting injured had no impact whatsoever on the result of the Adelaide (repeat: Adelaide) Test match.

You do realize India would have batted like in the 2nd session, maybe even 1st at Adelaide had it been for Paine. The point is simple IMO. He may have made 30s and 40s and 50s but they were crucial runs and was the difference between a comical 100 odd all out and more respectable scores they did manage to put out. And blaming only him for the loss is honestly comical.

I would love to see what will be said about Perfect Pat this time next year. I am not impressed at him selling Langer down the river there in the interview. And if England's current travails teaches anyone one thing, it should be that too much player power is never good. I dont think he will be as bad as Anderson and Broad as a person but power corrupts.

 

[Spark]

We lost a bowler ffs. Just because we won in Melbourne losing Umesh and Brisbane carrying a hobbled Saini doesn't suddenly mean Shami's loss in bowling Australia out isn't meaningful.

I literally said "(repeat: Adelaide)" anticipating this response and. yet.

 

[Prince EWS]

We lost a bowler ffs. Just because we won in Melbourne losing Umesh and Brisbane carrying a hobbled Saini doesn't suddenly mean Shami's loss in bowling Australia out isn't meaningful.

Okay so like, who owns this account?

Mostly good posts and all (welcome back, mystery man!), but no attempt to hide the inside baseball at all.