Will this be England's worst ever 5-0 defeat in Australia?

[GotSpin]

I was just listening to a podcast post 2nd Test where Ian Bell said he still thought Australia were the best team in the world.

Does everybody forget that this side has lost two home series to India in the last few years?

The 18/19 one could be excused to an extent because without Warner/Smith but they still had their full-strength bowling lineup out and if not for Sydney rain, could've easily been 3-1.

But last summer's India defeat had everything in Oz's favour; full-strength Oz lineup, India lose their captain and the opening Test, lose their entire first-choice bowling lineup and India still managed a series victory.

Last summer just exposes all the English excuses about how good Australia is and how tough it is to win in Australia as hollow.

They were mentally beaten before the tour started and this is on track to be the worst English Ashes touring side in living memory.

The captaincy has been a massive difference

we didn’t suddenly bowl bouncers for a session

 

[Xix2565]

Wasn't just Aussie captaincy that was lacking tbh that series. They've at least gotten a fresh start with some new faces and made better plans.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The captaincy has been a massive difference

we didn’t suddenly bowl bouncers for a session

England havent lasted long enough for australia to fall back on this. They always do once teams dig in a bit. And they did actually spend a good few overs pointlessly bowling bouncers to Broad and anderson in the first innings. That DNA is going nowhere.

 

[Chrish]

So general consensus is Pat Cummins is a good captain tactically? I don’t know enough about his leadership..

 

[Spark]

So general consensus is Pat Cummins is a good captain tactically? I don’t know enough about his leadership..

I've liked the frequency of his bowling changes and he hasn't done any dumb **** so far that doesn't make any sense. How much of that is him specifically and how much of that is Smith (because we know Smith is unusually involved in setting tactics for a VC) is unclear, and how much that will hold when he faces non-minnow tier batting lineups is obviously an open question, but so far there's nothing really to complain about.

 

[Spark]

England havent lasted long enough for australia to fall back on this. They always do once teams dig in a bit. And they did actually spend a good few overs pointlessly bowling bouncers to Broad and anderson in the first innings. That DNA is going nowhere.

are we honestly still pretending this doesn't work like 95% of the time to those two

like that period where everyone in the match thread lost their damn minds over a partnership of 16 that lasted less than 5 overs when aus still had, what, a 240 run lead was, uh, let's say lacking in perspective

 

[sunilz]

Australia's performance in this ashes is like Karun Nair's 300 or Axar patel bowling average. That is both are absolutely meaningless for longterm predictions or overseas conditions.

Pakistan will be the 1st true Test for this Aussie side under Cummins

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

like that period where everyone in the match thread lost their damn minds over a partnership of 16 that lasted less than 5 overs when aus still had, what, a 240 run lead was, uh, let's say lacking in perspective

Lmao who was posting then

 

[honestbharani]

While this is true, I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that this is exactly the same side. There have been some small changes which have a pretty dramatic influence when we're talking about the small margins that ended up deciding that particular series - Green's bowling actually being a useful threat, firstly, but most gallingly the vast, vast upgrade on both captain and keeper. That's a pretty important difference.

It's a bit like saying that 2010-11 England and 2013-14 England had many of the same players and thus the performance of the latter devalues the former. Well, no, that's not quite how it works.

Nah... if you assume u had Carey instead of Paine, you also have to account for the fact that you were very likely 2-0 down going into the SCG anyways.

 

[sunilz]

Slightly off topic but alarming decline in batting standards worldwide and the fact that most of the Test finish inside 4 days makes me feel he has a point

 

[sunilz]

I think most of the modern batsmen simply don't want to put up a fight in any challenging conditions.

 

[ataraxia]

Slightly off topic but alarming decline in batting standards worldwide and the fact that most of the Test finish inside 4 days makes me feel he has a point

ah yes. the best test side will be nothing but dust in four years' time

 

[_00_deathscar]

You don't win or lose Test matches based on how good your #6 is.

Been wondering how to shoehorn Jadeja into this thread (this one was tough I must admit) - and now I have.

 

[sunilz]

Wasn't Gilchrist a no. 6 batsman?

 

[ataraxia]

no

 

[Spark]

Nah... if you assume u had Carey instead of Paine, you also have to account for the fact that you were very likely 2-0 down going into the SCG anyways.

not at all, why would i assume that? paine made 50 at adelaide, not 150.

 

[honestbharani]

not at all, why would i assume that? paine made 50 at adelaide, not 150.

Dude they were 110/7 or something. Game is totally different otherwise. Dont kid yourself.

 

[Spark]

Dude they were 110/7 or something. Game is totally different otherwise. Dont kid yourself.

Yeah but what I'm saying is that you're basically assuming that Carey would have made 0. The bloke can bat! Even if he gets to his FC average, that still puts them around 160 and if there's one thing we've learned, you reaaaaally don't want to face a fresh Australian attack with an hour to go before stumps on a lively pitch. Even if you do have a small first innings lead.

This is even before we get to what actually happened when Australia bowled. Yes, it was a freak event to end all freak events. But it still happened, and in the end Australia won by, what, nine wickets? So no, I don't accept for one moment that Paine's innings was the one thing separating Australia from a loss in that game, or that that innings couldn't have been played by another batsman - especially a better batsman - than Paine.

 

[Xix2565]

And Australia got extremely lucky where every single edge carried and Shami got injured. I don't think you're getting a win in Adelaide with this new team under Cummins just because Paine's not there.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I'm sorry the lengths to which you guys go to to diminish everything Paine did is hilarious to me. I almost kinda respect it. It's like he shared unsolicited dick pics with you not that unfortunate woman.