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Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?

anil1405

International Captain
For a single test. At the very start of their career. Not for more than half their tests outside of Asia.

Even whilst being dropped, he averages 35 outside of Asia, compared to 21 in Asia. I don’t consider him an ATG based on these numbers and being dropped everytime India tours outside the SC. Almost identical numbers to Jadeja. Neither are ATG bowlers imo.
This is a rare case of having a ****head skipper flaunting his ego and showcasing his powers to drop a player he has had personal issues with.

Ashwin has improved his overseas performance a lot in the last 4 odd years as compared to his previous tours.
 

sunilz

International Regular
This is a rare case of having a ****head skipper flaunting his ego and showcasing his powers to drop a player he has had personal issues with.

Ashwin has improved his overseas performance a lot in the last 4 odd years as compared to his previous tours.
Dropping Ashwin for Jadeja is not that bad decision considering our batting strength.

The question is for how many countries Jadeja would have been the 1st choice spinner currently ? Jadeja himself is on the verge of being considered ATG if he brings down his SENA bowling average.
 

anil1405

International Captain
Dropping Ashwin for Jadeja is not that bad decision considering our batting strength.

The question is for how many countries Jadeja would have been the 1st choice spinner currently ? Jadeja himself is on the verge of being considered ATG if he brings down his SENA bowling average.
He has been average since that injury in Australia and on current form I'd pick Ashwin ahead of Jadeja if I had to pick one purely on the basis of bowling. Not Ash's fault that Kohli is favouring four seamers and none of them are good enough to bat at no 8 although they did play one or two promising innings.
 

karan_fromthestands

State Captain
Superlative performances in friendly conditions dont make up for below par performances in away conditions. Otherwise Murali should be rated far higher than any bowler in history based on his insane home numbers plus very good away numbers.

What Ashwin has done is impressive but hardly unique. There are plenty of other spinners who have world class figures and plenty of matches won in their own backyards but are lacking away from home, such as Herath, Jadeja, Yasir Shah or even Kumble. You can already foresee someone like Axar Patel ending up with similar figures by the end of his career. Its not that big of a deal.
Not sure where this is coming from. The only place where he has really struggled is South Africa, and he has only played 3 games there. He had a bad series in Australia and went back there as an improved bowler in his remaining outings.

You need to read up more on Indian cricket, I think. Ganguly himself said how much Kumble hated that and they were not even on speaking terms at a point. Dravid had to go and talk to Kumble. It definitely was stubbornness on Ganguly's part, coz unlike Jaddu, Bhajji was not even helping us win or anything. He just kept sucking and honestly was not all that better a batsman than Kumble either.
I have been watching the game since early 90s, and I think Kumble being kept out of the side once in a while for improving the team composition is being blown out of proportion here. It is no where close to how Kohli treats his players.

It was tough to deal with the likes of Bhajji, Kumble, and other legends that Ganguly had in the team. Whether it was shuffling the order or keeping one of the bowlers out to try out a different combination, it was tough. But the difference is communication, all players under Ganguly knew that they wouldn't be just randomly dropped or left out of the team for long periods without any reason, things like this create a feeling of security and get the best out of players.

In Ganguly's own words:

"My biggest challenge in that era was to tell either of Harbhajan or Kumble that you're not playing in overseas condition. If I tell Anil in seaming conditions in England that Harbhajan has 50 wickets in a year, you take a break in this game, he would say I've got 400 Test wickets."

"I remember in Brisbane, we had to leave Anil out of the game. After the match he came to me and said I want to go back and retire. He had so much pride and was such a champion that sitting out hurt him. I had to somehow hold his hands and say Anil I'll get you to play, don't worry."
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
The only point that counts against Ashwin is his average in SENA countries. He needs to bring it down to around 30. All remaining criticism are pointless.

If Warne/Murali were playing for India today , they too might be dropped in some matches ( But not as frequently as Ashwin)
No, the point against Ashwin is that he should actually start winning matches in SENA. Averaging 30 odd doesnt mean much if he is exclusively a support bowler.

And I doubt Warne/Murali would ever be dropped.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
You seem to confuse your opinion to be some kind of law in these things. FWIW, I do rate Murali as amongst the greatest bowlers ever and definitely the best bowler in my time of watching cricket.

And as usual you are talking out of your ass for the rest of your post. Which player, forget spinner, has 9 MoS in 33 series? Seriously, which one?
Ashwin is behind only Murali when it comes to being unplayable in his own conditions. But that doesnt mean a lot when the same bowler is incapable of winning matches outside of spinning pitches or weak opposition.

In fact, his great record in India only highlights how dependent he is on conditions to be penetrative. ATGs should be a threat in most if not all conditions.

Whereas in your book, an excellent record in spinning conditions is enough to make up for an average away record and call him an ATG.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
Ashwin is behind only Murali when it comes to being unplayable in his own conditions. But that doesnt mean a lot when the same bowler is incapable of winning matches outside of spinning pitches or weak opposition.

In fact, his great record in India only highlights how dependent he is on conditions to be penetrative. ATGs should be a threat in most if not all conditions.

Whereas in your book, an excellent record in spinning conditions is enough to make up for an average away record and call him an ATG.
HTBs should get their due IMO when they’re THAT dominant. He’s a large part of why we have won 80% or something of our home games with barely any draws - it’s unprecedented. This is the best team at home in history.
 

TheJediBrah

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HTBs should get their due IMO when they’re THAT dominant. He’s a large part of why we have won 80% or something of our home games with barely any draws - it’s unprecedented. This is the best team at home in history.
Surely you can't be an ATG if you average 35 with the ball away from Asia though.

David Warner isn't an ATG
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
HTBs should get their due IMO when they’re THAT dominant. He’s a large part of why we have won 80% or something of our home games with barely any draws - it’s unprecedented. This is the best team at home in history.
ATGs should be by definition not HTBs. You cant stake your claim for greatness based exclusively on your performance in one country. It doesnt make any sense.
 

Migara

International Coach
Dropping Ashwin for Jadeja is not that bad decision considering our batting strength.

The question is for how many countries Jadeja would have been the 1st choice spinner currently ? Jadeja himself is on the verge of being considered ATG if he brings down his SENA bowling average.
Answer: ALL
 

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