***Official New Zealand in India Nov-Dec 2021 Thread***

[GotSpin]

Its not our fault that we are so much superior compared to the persistent mediocrity dished out by touring teams here. Its on the tourists to learn to bat and bowl properly and adjust to conditions away from home. When your entire team is blown away for 62 and the opposition is 69/0 in the exact same conditions, the problem isn't the pitch, it's clearly you.

The last time a team on our shore showed the correct skills, courage and respect for the game was Australia in the Border-Gavaskar Trophy 2017; led by the cheat Steve Smith. As a result, after 3 tests and two innings, the series hung on a knife's edge with Australia maybe even slightly ahead. Both teams had to dig deep and find the reserves to fight back as the momentum kept on shifting in every session after the first test.

We only don't remember that series as a classic because of Australia's hilarious collapse in the very next innings, but that series proves that there is nothing inherently wrong with Indian conditions which offer a great variety of assistance to all kinds of bowlers and success to the pedigreed touring batsman. Its just that India is an ATG side in the making and to compete here, you have to have multi-dimensional players capable of performing in conditions away from home and possibly have at least one ATG in the team like Australia had in the 'No.2 ranked' best batsman in the world - Steven Smith.

India really benefit from not having any other serious competition in the subcontinent who should do well in such conditions. Still a very good side but it helps

 

[nzfan]

Enjoyed the 10 fer from Ajaz, raised a toast and promptly slept last night knowing any chance of a serious fightback on this deck from us is asking for a miracle particularly without Kane playing.

I thought we'd be like 5 down for not so much but didn't expect us to lose top 3 to a pacer. Then also go on to lose all wickets in like couple of hours. We're better than that.

I guess it's one of those days. The momentum swings and before you realize you get good balls after balls, go in the shell hoping for some luck to come your way but it gets worse instead. It happens so quick the batters get no time to gather thoughts and come up with a plan to cope.

I guess the result was kind of forgone conclusion, one when we lost the toss and had to bat 4th, second when India fought back to post over 200.

I haven't seen black caps cave in like they did last night in ages. Whatever the selection, barring Kane and Conway this is our core batting group. We nearly lost the last game too. Although we got away with a well fought draw in the last game we were in the game many times. Not so much this game. We are totally outplayed so far. Still will take a draw from this series, helps our WTC points.

 

[nzfan]

What's disappointing is Ross, Nicholls and Blundell are much better than what we have seen on this tour. Nicholls may be technically not the best going around but Ross and Blundell are not this bad. Nicholls can still bat but looking at the highlights they just don't seem to be getting in good positions. Blundell trying to bat out sessions is not going to work. Never seen him bat like this, dead defense ball after ball. Mayank, Saha and Axar showed that you have to punish good balls to be able to make contribution with the bat. Just dead batting is not going to get us anywhere.

Darryl Mitchell had a very good t20 WC at the top but batting in test cricket at the top is a whole different ball game. I'm not sure why he had to bat at the top. Not that he would have done better down the order but no.3 is not his regular spot even in domestic cricket and in one of the all important series overseas to try him out in that position is like trying to take a chance and hope for the best.

Shows what an amazing knock that was from Mayank. Terrific player of spin and of course he's helped by having played plenty of cricket on such decks. Our guys are coming on the back of playing spin in the nets. I don't think the guys that played first class before heading to India would have come across any deck that would spin and bounce as much as this deck did. Can't find a fix to this either. The conditions have been like this in India 100 years ago, now and will be 100 years later. No excuses. The only way for us going forward is probably get the boys playing in sub continent fair bit (not t20s) before all important sub continent tours. We were ill prepared anyways so happy to take a draw. India probably won't be happy with a 1-0 series win.

 

[Immenso]

I think this exposes carrying 2 passengers in the top 5 batting (Taylor and Nicholls). Get 2 injuries and suddenly you are relying only 2 batters for all your runs. (Not that there is any unseen depth to just drop in, we've seen it all alrady in Young and Ravindra)

Obviously, this isnt an all out 60ish explanation. Just shines a light on it even more.

I thought India's all out 325 was about par, but expected us to only get about 200.

I have to confess, I had switched to Netflix before an Indian spinner even came on to bowl, lol.

 

[Flem274*]

I don't think Nicholls counts as a passenger yet. His test record is very solid in a bowlers era. He isn't a better batsman than Young, but Young throwing away FC hundreds from debut through to 2019-19ish isn't Nicholls problem.

If Nicholls was dropped I'd be more than happy to have him as the reserve batsman.

We've just been toasted by the world #2 on a deck they know inside out and we don't. Take out a great knock by Agarwal and this game is a bit of a shoot out. The first session day 1 contributed as much to this result as incompetent batting. The batting just decided how much tbh. I know they bowled well without luck but after the excellent performance on State Highway Kanpur I did hope for more here.

This batting order though, someone needs to be shot. A #4 opening, a #6 at #3 and an opener at #7. Get it together. Batting position can mean the difference between respectability and disaster.

Taylor's test career depends on how long Williamson is out. Been hearing the reason they haven't cut Kane open yet is surgery won't help much, which is...very concerning for his career. I wouldn't play Williamson against Bangladesh at all and retire him from T20 immediately.

I'm still not sure I'd bother playing Ajaz in home tests, especially with Ravindra around. There's no point, we know how spinners go here. He should play every away test except Australia though, which makes this the end of the road for Trent Boult being a certain starter.

 

[ma1978]

India really benefit from not having any other serious competition in the subcontinent who should do well in such conditions. Still a very good side but it helps

I would love to see India play Pakistan in the subcontinent for test matches. I think Pakistan is a sneaky good team in these conditions.

 

[Flem274*]

On Ajaz, it's nice to see his NZ FC tactics being rewarded. I'm mkaing a bit of an assumption here since I haven't seen full replays.

I've noticed he's very much a percentages bowler. In the Shield there's obviously no turn until March, so he bowls wicket to wicket and keeps all dismissals open. He's more skilled than just that of course, but it is his stock ball. It sounds obvious but it's hard to execute when the margin for error in NZ is so tiny.

The bar in NZ FC for spin bowling is unfair and a lot of test match spinners would find themselves rudely crashing to Earth pre-March unless they had height and bounce, but it's nice to see the short fat survivor finding away tests in Asia almost a bit easier despite India, Pakistan (at home) and SL (at home) being very dangerous sides.

 

[nzfan]

It's a super special achievement by Ajaz on many accounts:

1. Overseas test
2. Against India who are very good players of spin
3. 1st and 2nd day pitch - even more special.
4. A non sub continent spinner
5. Good wickets i.e. good balls to get poles. Some of them make for very good highlights

 

[nzfan]

On Ajaz, it's nice to see his NZ FC tactics being rewarded. I'm mkaing a bit of an assumption here since I haven't seen full replays.

I've noticed he's very much a percentages bowler. In the Shield there's obviously no turn until March, so he bowls wicket to wicket and keeps all dismissals open. He's more skilled than just that of course, but it is his stock ball. It sounds obvious but it's hard to execute when the margin for error in NZ is so tiny.

The bar in NZ FC for spin bowling is unfair and a lot of test match spinners would find themselves rudely crashing to Earth pre-March unless they had height and bounce, but it's nice to see the short fat survivor finding away tests in Asia almost a bit easier despite India, Pakistan (at home) and SL (at home) being very dangerous sides.

On our decks Ashwin, Jadeja etc... struggle too. That's not going to change.

 

[Xix2565]

how can you possibly say ''there is nothing inherently'' wrong with Indian conditions.
having only joined this site just over a week ago, it appears i'm already running out of juice.
why is it that so many people who read this forum have a tendency to hide from the truth.
why is it people don't seem to talk about the real issue at hand?
please address the matter, and explain how those conditions played against England earlier this year have anything whatsoever to do with cricket.
explain how you think the ball grubbering along the ground in the first test plays its role in test cricket.
its all very well to pretend everything is alright, but it's not, so please focus on the direct points, not start thinking there are any personal
issues at hand. My opinion on this matter isn't suddenly made up because of a weak NZ performance on this tour, anybody who seriously
knows anything about cricket knew this would happen, but on a much larger picture.
please, again I beg you to address the direct points and not deviate around them.

There is no real problem with pitches unless it's a highway like Colombo in 1997 where teams make 600s and 900s for fun or if it's like Johannesburg 2018/Sabina Park 1998 where bounce is so variable people are in danger of getting killed. There's also runup problems, of which there's only been the pink ball Test at Ahmedabad (1st Test there since renovation). Otherwise what real problems have there been that can't be fixed by having actually good players who cam remain calm and not panic like headless chickens when wickets are tumbling?

It's so funny that fans will bitch about spin being destructive in India but then sing praises of 78/60/58/36-9 all out in swinging/seaming conditions by praising fast bowling skills being abused in favourable conditions. If teams can't play well in India it's their problem, it's not like we've also been winning all the tosses to abuse the home conditions even further.

 

[vandem]

...It's so funny that fans will bitch about spin being destructive in India but then sing praises of 78/60/58/36-9 all out in swinging/seaming conditions by praising fast bowling skills being abused in favourable conditions. If teams can't play well in India it's their problem, it's not like we've also been winning all the tosses to abuse the home conditions even further.

I think most of the NZ posters here won't "bitch about spin being destructive" in India. We might bitch if a road is prepared and neither team has a chance to take 20 wickets (although playing on a Perth road allowed us to get close to squaring a series in Aussie in 2015). But different conditions in different countries are part of what makes test cricket so interesting.

P.S. NZ didn't win a test toss in India this tour or last tour. I don't think winning a toss would have changed any of the results, but would have made the 1st and 2nd tests in 2015-16 closer than the eventual 197 and 178 run margins.

 

[Xix2565]

I think most of the NZ posters here won't "bitch about spin being destructive" in India. We might bitch if a road is prepared and neither team has a chance to take 20 wickets (although playing on a Perth road allowed us to get close to squaring a series in Aussie in 2015). But different conditions in different countries are part of what makes test cricket so interesting.

P.S. NZ didn't win a test toss in India this tour or last tour. I don't think winning a toss would have changed any of the results, but would have made the 1st and 2nd tests in 2015-16 closer than the eventual 197 and 178 run margins.

I totally agree most posters here, let alone most NZ ones, won't make such weird complaints about spin in India. My post was more towards the style of posting by people like ashley bach.

I had this earlier:

Since 2012:

India winning the toss: 19 (excluding this Test) games, of which 16 have been won and 3 draws.

India losing the toss: 20 games, of which 15 are wins, 2 losses and 3 draws.

I don't think pitch talk really matters that much when we can win or draw games 37/39 times in home conditions.

Definitely puts into context what drawing at Kanpur 9 down was overall. If this Test goes down as a win, it would mean we have a record of 32-6-2 at home in the last 9 years. Winning 80% of your games at home is pretty good imo.

 

[Salamuddin]

Enjoyed the 10 fer from Ajaz, raised a toast and promptly slept last night knowing any chance of a serious fightback on this deck from us is asking for a miracle particularly without Kane playing.

I thought we'd be like 5 down for not so much but didn't expect us to lose top 3 to a pacer. Then also go on to lose all wickets in like couple of hours. We're better than that.

I guess it's one of those days. The momentum swings and before you realize you get good balls after balls, go in the shell hoping for some luck to come your way but it gets worse instead. It happens so quick the batters get no time to gather thoughts and come up with a plan to cope.

I guess the result was kind of forgone conclusion, one when we lost the toss and had to bat 4th, second when India fought back to post over 200.

I haven't seen black caps cave in like they did last night in ages. Whatever the selection, barring Kane and Conway this is our core batting group. We nearly lost the last game too. Although we got away with a well fought draw in the last game we were in the game many times. Not so much this game. We are totally outplayed so far. Still will take a draw from this series, helps our WTC points.

The toss didn't have much too to do with it I'm afraid.nz got pretty good wickets unlike England earlier in the year.

Truth is nz were probably going to get exposed at some point. Their success to the wtc final was Lrgely built on success at home against teams that struggle in kiwi conditions. Fact is for all the hype about them being wtc champions they got smashed 3 zip in Australia not that long ago and failed to beat a poor Sri Lanka side away from home in 2019.

Several of their batsmen have significantly better records at home than overseas. KANE, Latham, Ross and nicholls. It amazes me that nicholls is so highly rated given that I believe he averages sub 30 away from home.

No way they were going to win in India with that kind of line up.

 

[centurymaker]

Wagner should have been picked in Kanpur with the benefit of hindsight. But the stats show that it wasn't a mistake, not picking him before the start of the test.

We've just been toasted by the world #2 on a deck they know inside out and we don't.

World No #1 now


Head to head its so tight-

Non-playing XI vs Playing XI

Rahul --- Mayank
Rohit --- Gill
Shaw --- Pujara
Vihari --- Kohli
Rahane - Iyer
Pant ---- Saha
Jadeja -- Ashwin
Sundar -- Jayant
Thakur -- Axar
Shami --- Yadav
Bumrah -- Siraj


I can't decide which team is better. Jadeja missing out this test really helps the non-playing attack, though Siraj and Kohli playing in this game help the playing XI

Would be a really close match between the two XIs

 

[Flem274*]

The toss didn't have much too to do with it I'm afraid.nz got pretty good wickets unlike England earlier in the year.

Truth is nz were probably going to get exposed at some point. Their success to the wtc final was Lrgely built on success at home against teams that struggle in kiwi conditions. Fact is for all the hype about them being wtc champions they got smashed 3 zip in Australia not that long ago and failed to beat a poor Sri Lanka side away from home in 2019.

Several of their batsmen have significantly better records at home than overseas. KANE, Latham, Ross and nicholls. It amazes me that nicholls is so highly rated given that I believe he averages sub 30 away from home.

No way they were going to win in India with that kind of line up.

ok

 

[Chrish]

Toss definitely plays crucial role at any venue and especially in SC. But since it’s a factor that can’t be controlled by any team, it’s kinda pointless to talk about it.

And although this particular game didn’t go well for NZ, they still are a pretty strong team. That won’t change anytime soon.

 

[Salamuddin]

Toss definitely plays crucial role at any venue and especially in SC. But since it’s a factor that can’t be controlled by any team, it’s kinda pointless to talk about it.

And although this particular game didn’t go well for NZ, they still are a pretty strong team. That won’t change anytime soon.

Nz are a strong team in their conditions particularly so against certain opposition and possibly England where the conditions are reasonably similar to home.

But they are not that great elsewhere. India are a better team across all types of conditions and all opposition.

Nz had a real opportunity in this series to show they were genuinely the world no 1 and not just on paper and they have failed the test pretty badly imo. They were behind the eight ball at Kanpur for most of the way and are being blown away here.

 

[Chrish]

Nz are a strong team in their conditions particularly so against certain opposition and possibly England where the conditions are reasonably similar to home.

But they are not that great elsewhere. India are a better team across all types of conditions and all opposition.

It would depend on how they perform in Australia and how India performs in SA (albeit a weaker version of their past).

For now, all teams are condition dependent IMO.

 

[_Ed_]

Nz are a strong team in their conditions particularly so against certain opposition and possibly England where the conditions are reasonably similar to home.

But they are not that great elsewhere.

We've done pretty well in the UAE.

 

[centurymaker]

The toss didn't have much too to do with it I'm afraid.nz got pretty good wickets unlike England earlier in the year.

Truth is nz were probably going to get exposed at some point. Their success to the wtc final was Lrgely built on success at home against teams that struggle in kiwi conditions. Fact is for all the hype about them being wtc champions they got smashed 3 zip in Australia not that long ago and failed to beat a poor Sri Lanka side away from home in 2019.

Several of their batsmen have significantly better records at home than overseas. KANE, Latham, Ross and nicholls. It amazes me that nicholls is so highly rated given that I believe he averages sub 30 away from home.

No way they were going to win in India with that kind of line up.

can you imagine if not for the slow over rate deduction Australia would have made the final instead of New zealand.

Then in June, NZ had a two match preparation series against a half strength England side before the Wtc final, which really helped. And conditions in the final were NZ like too. Won the toss. India played poor but factors were heavily in NZs favour, just like they are now in Indias favour. And result is obvious.

But winning the test final perhaps is a just compensation for being robbed in ODI Wc final. Overall NZ deserved a world title in one format or another, having made 4 finals out of 5 in last 6 years.

Warmups / acclimatisation does make a HUGE difference though. India team jumping into the final fresh of the boat without much practice versus India team playing against England in August after acclimatisation is perfect example. The improvement in both batting and bowling was drastic vs England.