Coronis
International Coach
It was in response to a post about him needing to contribute more to wins, I assumed it was somewhat relevant.
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
| DG Bradman (AUS) | 130.08 | ||||||||||
| SPD Smith (AUS) | 79.58 | ||||||||||
| KS Williamson (NZ) | 78.73 | ||||||||||
| Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK) | 78.16 | ||||||||||
| GS Sobers (WI) | 77.42 | ||||||||||
| Younis Khan (PAK) | 74.39 | ||||||||||
| FMM Worrell (WI) | 74.15 | ||||||||||
| KC Sangakkara (SL) | 71.69 | ||||||||||
| GS Chappell (AUS) | 70.49 | ||||||||||
| WR Hammond (ENG) | 69.83 | ||||||||||
| JC Adams (WI) | 69.72 | ||||||||||
| HP Tillakaratne (SL) | 69.72 | ||||||||||
| SR Waugh (AUS) | 69.46 | ||||||||||
| JB Hobbs (ENG) | 68.00 | ||||||||||
| ED Weekes (WI) | 66.80 | ||||||||||
| Saeed Anwar (PAK) | 66.29 | ||||||||||
| RG Sharma (INDIA) | 65.90 | ||||||||||
| R Dravid (INDIA) | 65.78 | ||||||||||
| S Chanderpaul (WI) | 65.66 | ||||||||||
| L Hutton (ENG) | 65.31 | ||||||||||
| DPMD Jayawardene (SL) | 64.66 | ||||||||||
| JE Root (ENG) | 64.60 | ||||||||||
| KF Barrington (ENG) | 64.41 | ||||||||||
| KD Walters (AUS) | 63.97 | ||||||||||
| AB de Villiers (SA) | 63.43 | ||||||||||
| Misbah-ul-Haq (PAK) | 63.10 | ||||||||||
| H Sutcliffe (ENG) | 62.97 | ||||||||||
| WH Ponsford (AUS) | 62.83 | ||||||||||
| GP Thorpe (ENG) | 62.62 | ||||||||||
| JH Kallis (SA) | 62.53 |
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Interesting to see Jimmy Adams, Hashan Tillakaratne, Rohit Sharma, and Graham Thorpe so high on that list
Victor Ian
International Coach
So Kallis has a better average, better matches per 50 & 100s, played in a much harder country for batting, bowls better, fields better, but we are pointing out his lowly contribution in wins as opposed to a notable exception to that list.
kyear2
International Coach
List can be a little misleading. Can also highlight record vs minnows. As they would contribute a great percentage of most team's wins.
DG Bradman (AUS) 130.08 SPD Smith (AUS) 79.58 KS Williamson (NZ) 78.73 Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK) 78.16 GS Sobers (WI) 77.42 Younis Khan (PAK) 74.39 FMM Worrell (WI) 74.15 KC Sangakkara (SL) 71.69 GS Chappell (AUS) 70.49 WR Hammond (ENG) 69.83 JC Adams (WI) 69.72 HP Tillakaratne (SL) 69.72 SR Waugh (AUS) 69.46 JB Hobbs (ENG) 68.00 ED Weekes (WI) 66.80 Saeed Anwar (PAK) 66.29 RG Sharma (INDIA) 65.90 R Dravid (INDIA) 65.78 S Chanderpaul (WI) 65.66 L Hutton (ENG) 65.31 DPMD Jayawardene (SL) 64.66 JE Root (ENG) 64.60 KF Barrington (ENG) 64.41 KD Walters (AUS) 63.97 AB de Villiers (SA) 63.43 Misbah-ul-Haq (PAK) 63.10 H Sutcliffe (ENG) 62.97 WH Ponsford (AUS) 62.83 GP Thorpe (ENG) 62.62 JH Kallis (SA) 62.53
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
stats.espncricinfo.com
1. Pick the guy with comfortably the most MOM awards ever, and discuss whether he was a match winner
2. Pick a meaningless metric like averages in wins
3. Ignore the fact that you are comparing an AR to specialists. If averages in wins actually meant anything, he went sub 25 with the ball in wins
2. Pick a meaningless metric like averages in wins
3. Ignore the fact that you are comparing an AR to specialists. If averages in wins actually meant anything, he went sub 25 with the ball in wins
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Definitely. Also some batsmen play their best innings to save tests or even in losing causes when the rest of the side is outgunned
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Alan Davidson has passed away. 
RIP
RIP
kyear2
International Coach
Exactly. That's the true test of character.
smash84
The Tiger King
What's Tendulkar's average in wins? And Lara?
DG Bradman (AUS) 130.08 SPD Smith (AUS) 79.58 KS Williamson (NZ) 78.73 Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK) 78.16 GS Sobers (WI) 77.42 Younis Khan (PAK) 74.39 FMM Worrell (WI) 74.15 KC Sangakkara (SL) 71.69 GS Chappell (AUS) 70.49 WR Hammond (ENG) 69.83 JC Adams (WI) 69.72 HP Tillakaratne (SL) 69.72 SR Waugh (AUS) 69.46 JB Hobbs (ENG) 68.00 ED Weekes (WI) 66.80 Saeed Anwar (PAK) 66.29 RG Sharma (INDIA) 65.90 R Dravid (INDIA) 65.78 S Chanderpaul (WI) 65.66 L Hutton (ENG) 65.31 DPMD Jayawardene (SL) 64.66 JE Root (ENG) 64.60 KF Barrington (ENG) 64.41 KD Walters (AUS) 63.97 AB de Villiers (SA) 63.43 Misbah-ul-Haq (PAK) 63.10 H Sutcliffe (ENG) 62.97 WH Ponsford (AUS) 62.83 GP Thorpe (ENG) 62.62 JH Kallis (SA) 62.53
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
Last edited:
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Tendulkar 61.93
Lara 61.02
I guess during the 90s Tendulkar scored a lot of runs but India weren't very successful. Same with Lara in for the WIs in the 2000s (and Lara's monster scores 400, 375, 277 were in draws).
TheJediBrah
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The main reason I don't rate Lara as highly as I could. Just that 400 innings was so selfish. Didn't try to win the game (which they definitely could have, and probably would have, done) so he could go for a personal record. Don't think you would see that from almost any other players who would usually put the team first by declaring, eg. Warner 335, Clarke 329 who could have pushed for the 400 if they didn't prefer to win the game.
Victor Ian
International Coach
Should analyse most runs in draws and losses. Runs in losses are maybe credit worthy but I imagine a huge chunk of runs in draws are classic stat padding.
kyear2
International Coach
Going for the record meant more to most people in the Caribbean than one test victory. I could be wrong, but don't recall many persons in the region calling him out for it after.
TheJediBrah
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I definitely would. WI didn't win much back then and he threw away a golden opportunity. I don't know if WI culture is different but I can't comprehend a record being more important than winning, and more importantly if I'm picking a team I want it to win I couldn't care less if someone makes a perdonal milestone. One thing that he compares infavourably to say Tendulkar or Smith.
Victor Ian
International Coach
I don't think it's right to put down Lara for that 400. The opposite, in fact. Loses record and gets it back quickly. Just shows when he set his mind to something how good he was.
TheJediBrah
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Nah that's ridiculous. Literally threw away a possible, even likely, win for selfish reasons. Could even argue he only has the record because he's selfish rather than one of those guys that declared on 330+ who cared more about the team. Everyone calls Sachin selfish but he never did anything as blatant as that afaik.
Not saying i wouldn't consider Lara for an ATG team because of that, but it's definitely a factor. As I said, I'm picking an ATG team to win games not make personal milestones.
kyear2
International Coach
I honestly can't remember my exact reaction to his decision, but I remember there was a sense of regional pride after.
Believe it or not, most people don't remember who would have won or lost that match, now or 10 years from now. They do remember that BCL got back the record.
OverratedSanity
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Wouldn't the most stat padding runs of all i.e. Second innings declaration runs with a big lead when you come in to bat be included in wins quite often. Its a dumb stat.
TheJediBrah
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Agree it's a dumb stat, but coversely those second innings declaration situations often hurt your stats when you're throwing your wicket away for quick runs