Dhoni v Gilchrist

[sunilz]

Gilchrist batting average and SR , along with his record in 3 ODI WC finals always make him ATG.

 

[honestbharani]

This is straight up revisionism. He scored 9000+ runs in his career in ODIs as one of the first picked members in a side that won basically everything, of course he was thought of as an ODI great at the time.

I didn't think so and I think many wont have given his average and the fact that his ODI career was in the 00s which was the easiest era for ODI batting till that time, especially for openers. And there were at least 3 better keeper batsmen even in that period around the world circuit.

 

[Spark]

I didn't think so and I think many wont have given his average and the fact that his ODI career was in the 00s which was the easiest era for ODI batting till that time, especially for openers. And there were at least 3 better keeper batsmen even in that period around the world circuit.

Name them. 1996-2008.

 

[honestbharani]

I already did. AB, Sanga and MSD.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sanga? lol. Guy was mediocre for ages in ODIs before a great last 2-3 years. Massively overrating him. No one in their right mind is picking Sanga before Gilchrist in ODIs.

 

[sunilz]

Sanga was garbage ODI bat till 2010 and did ABD keep wickets in ODI ? Because iirc their ODI keeper was Boucher.

 

[honestbharani]

Sanga? lol. Guy was mediocre for ages in ODIs before a great last 2-3 years. Massively overrating him.

I dont think SL would have taken Gilly over Sanga at that period. And I think he finished with the better career.

 

[Spark]

I already did. AB, Sanga and MSD.

de Villiers had scored a grand total of three ODI hundreds by the time Gilchrist retired, so absolutely not. The same applied to MSD Sanga's record in the same time period is straight up worse too.

You can argue that all three surpassed him after that - I would quibble in Sanga's case - but as no one in March 2008 had access to a time machine, pretending that people thought they were greater ODI keeper-batsmen at the time when Gilchrist retired is, as I said, revisionism.

 

[Teja.]

Legit question: who was the player to make it as keeper in an ODI ATG XI by the time Gilchrist retired?

Dhoni had only played 2-3 years by then.

 

[Spark]

I dont think SL would have taken Gilly over Sanga at that period. And I think he finished with the better career.

You tell me what you'd do.

 

[Spark]

Legit question: who was the player to make it as keeper in an ODI ATG XI by the time Gilchrist retired?

Dhoni had only played 2-3 years by then.

That's what I'm saying: Gilchrist was the universally unquestioned pick for that spot at the time. It was after that that Dhoni really made his case for greatness.

 

[honestbharani]

de Villiers had scored a grand total of three ODI hundreds by the time Gilchrist retired, so absolutely not. The same applied to MSD Sanga's record in the same time period is straight up worse too.

You can argue that all three surpassed him after that - I would quibble in Sanga's case - but as no one in March 2008 had access to a time machine, pretending that people thought they were greater ODI keeper-batsmen at the time when Gilchrist retired is, as I said, revisionism.

Fair enough. I at least did not think so. I dont want to stretch this argument as it seems my recollection is actually faulty in this case. I still dont think he is an ODI great and did not think it then.

 

[Teja.]

That's what I'm saying: Gilchrist was the universally unquestioned pick for that spot at the time. It was after that that Dhoni really made his case for greatness.

Yeah, my memory is that Gilchrist was a strong lock for an ATG ODI XI by the time he retired. How is that not greatness?

 

[honestbharani]

That's what I'm saying: Gilchrist was the universally unquestioned pick for that spot at the time. It was after that that Dhoni really made his case for greatness.

2003-2008 is not 3/4 years and he was even captain by then.

 

[honestbharani]

View attachment 29475

You tell me what you'd do.

I agreed that my recollection was faulty coz I thought AB and Sanga had their peaks when Gilly was still around, in his last years. That said, I dont think either RSA or SL were looking for a keeper who can open given whom they had at that time. I dont think they would have dropped either of them for Gilly.

 

[Spark]

2003-2008 is not 3/4 years and he was even captain by then.

Yes, and? Don't get me wrong, it was clear by then that he was an excellent player, but his record didn't exactly scream the greatest keeper-batsman of all time. That would come later.

 

[honestbharani]

Yes, and? Don't get me wrong, it was clear by then that he was an excellent player, but his record didn't exactly scream the greatest keeper-batsman of all time.

I am just saying it would have been fair to think he was gonna surpass Gilly by that point as it was enough years into his career. You forget 3 or 4 years is almost half of Gilly's career anyways.

FWIW, this was the time I started realizing we should not pick current players and compare them to players who have completed their careers. So if I time travelled to 2008, I probably wont pick Dhoni easily over Gilly. At the same time, I have always felt Jaya and Lara had equally good cases for being the other opener. Soz.

 

[Spark]

I am just saying it would have been fair to think he was gonna surpass Gilly by that point as it was enough years into his career. You forget 3 or 4 years is almost half of Gilly's career anyways.

...no it wasn't? What. You can literally see the dates up there in that table, he was a regular from 1997 onwards.

 

[honestbharani]

...no it wasn't? What. You can literally see the dates up there in that table, he was a regular from 1997 onwards.

almost half - I think 4/10 is almost half. Remember he basically retired in the 2007 season and became a regular in the 97/98 season.

 

[Spark]

almost half - I think 4/10 is almost half. Remember he basically retired in the 2007 season and became a regular in the 97/98 season.

I strongly suggest you check it yourself by putting in the actual career dates. It's a much smaller fraction than a half.

In any case, when you do so you'll see what Dhoni's record really was like at the time and you'll see why I repeat: Dhoni was in no way obviously the greatest keeper-batsman of all time when Gilchrist retired from ODIs. He may have had the potential to be so but no one thinks of these things in terms of potential otherwise we may as well pick Rishabh Pant and Cameron Green in an ATG Test XI captained by Carl Hooper.