Is Moeen Ali the best ever test no-rounder?

[Jack1]

After 64 tests
Moeen Ali 2914 runs, 195 wickets

Flintoff 3197 runs, 186 wickets

When I think about that Moeen Ali is an all-rounder. Not really a fan of him in tests, but his RPG and WPG are good enough for all-rounder level. The averages aren't ideal. Ideally you'd want to average over 30 with the bat and under 33 with the ball to be called an all-rounder, but just because Ali isn't an elite level all-rounder doesn't mean he isn't an all rounder. After all they pump Flintoff up as England's best all-rounder sometimes, or at least in the mix with Botham (and Stokes). Can't really not call Ali an all-rounder in that sense when his stats are close to Flintoff. Of course feel free to call Flintoff not an all rounder if you want.

 

[honestbharani]

If by no-rounder we mean someone who was ostensibly an all-rounder but didn't provide enough of either discipline to justify it, then Derek Pringle takes some beating.

Mark Ealham and Ronnie Irani played tests, right?

 

[Prince EWS]

He ended up a bit of a spud after his dropping and recall, but for a time he was genuinely good.

I think he's particularly worth conceptualising in the context of what England wanted from him. They wanted a spinner, but their spinners were all shite so they couldn't justify picking one on bowling alone. In the first half of his career he provided that role batting 6, 7 and 8 in almost equal propotion while averaging 35 with the bat and 38 with the ball, the latter of which came despite bowling essentially as a frontline bowler despite not having done that before.

For all the talk of England picking a role before they picked the player, that role did really suit them, and if they picked a conventionally better player instead of him I think they would've done much less well for a time.

His tag-team with Stokes made him 'work' in the context of their team, especially at home and on helpful tracks away.

For someone with such a mediocre record in all senses of the word, if England had their time over again and never picked him for a single Test I think they would've done less well.

He was a meh frontline spinner and a crap frontline batsman, but a good cricketer, and England made that work.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

I remember when Mooen was opening the batting( if my memory is clear) for Worcestershire way back in 2010 when Shakib went for a stint in county cricket.

He wasn’t that bad of an opener

 

[Howe_zat]

You can't really call him a norounder when as a bowler alone he had some fantastic moments and a generally decent record for an offspinner. There are plenty of full time spinners from England who have similar or worse average and made a career on it.

I know that comparing his bowling favourably to the likes of Tufnell, Croft or Giles amounts to rather faint praise but their bowling was enough to give them a clear role in the side.

 

[Howe_zat]

Say it with me now:

Moeen is a perfectly fine bowler FFS

 

[honestbharani]

He helped win a series in SL 3-0, he helped win two home series against India, both of which would have most likely ended 2-2 but for his performance in a key test. I think he has had a decent career. Talentwise, underachieved as a batsman and overachieved as a bowler, but I think on the whole he had a very positive net effect on the England test side and the fans should be thankful for that. His worst performances, to me, were ones where a better replacement would still not have made a match turning difference and his best performances were possibly better than anything a more traditional replacement would have done.

 

[Teja.]

Thanks for those Kohli moments.

 

[Prince EWS]

Talentwise, underachieved as a batsman and overachieved as a bowler,

I actually think he was really talented as a bowler, and was kind of undeveloped on that front by the domestic circuit once he debuted in his mid-20s. He kind of learnt how to bowl properly at Test level as it went despite clearly having the tools to be a Test bowler.

 

[Daemon]

Feel like Mo slightly overachieved with the ball and massively underachieved with the bat. You see him play sometimes and feel his stats should resemble someone like Carl Hooper but with better bowling.

 

[Daemon]

Lol I did not see that hb post.

 

[slippy888]

Close to Sobers

 

[Jack1]

I actually think he was really talented as a bowler, and was kind of undeveloped on that front by the domestic circuit once he debuted in his mid-20s. He kind of learnt how to bowl properly at Test level as it went despite clearly having the tools to be a Test bowler.

k

 

[SteveNZ]

Daniel Vettori and Ravi Shastri name came to my mind . I will leave it to Kiwi fans about what they felt about Vettori

Latter part of his career, you've got a decent point.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Mark Ealham and Ronnie Irani played tests, right?

They were tried and failed and discarded. Pringle was selected while still at university and was constantly recalled over a ten year period for no logical reason.

As far as Ali is concerned I never thought he was a Test class spinner, but wouldn’t argue with the “perfectly fine” description given the alternatives.

 

[Blenkinsop]

Apart from Underwood and Swann, have there been any English specialist spinners since the Laker / Lock days who have produced significantly better career bowling stats than Moeen?

Phil Edmonds averaged 34 from 51 Tests. Phil Tufnell averaged 38 from 42. John Emburey averaged 38 from 64. Monty Panesar 35 from 50.

Historically, England either doesn't produce good spinners or doesn't manage them well. Even though Mo was mucked about by the selectors too, he was easily as good as most of the frontline spinners that had long England careers since the 60s. And unlike Tufnell or Panesar, he could bat, though that went downhill.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I wondered about Ray Illingworth. His 31 average is okay, but more impressively he’s the oldest living ODI cricketer.

 

[Teja.]

Frank Wooley played about the same amount of tests as Mooen, has around the same amount of runs and has scored the same amount of centuries. He took less than half the amount of wickets Moeen did though.

His averages in both departments are much better than Moeen though.

 

[Pothas]

Absolute hero.

 

[Gnske]

Overrated. And then to watch India get demolished by him was quite frankly embarassing.

Bold to claim he could have been Ben Stokes on his part. I could have been making out with Uma Thurman if I looked like Brad Pitt.