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Is Moeen Ali the best ever test no-rounder?
- Thread starter mr_mister
- Start date
TheJediBrah
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Yeah he was very good wasn't he. But for most of his career he probably doesn't get in as either.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Pre-03 yeah if he didn’t have both strings he’d have had neither I reckon.
Post-06, I think the fitness issues meant we were only ever playing him as a 5th bowler, so yeah still needed to be able to throw his bat.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Flintoff is a classic case of someone who was persisted with as a no-rounder and then finally realized his peak as an allrounder and then fell away again.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Even more that, according to the ICC algorithm he is the only man to ever be rated during his career (albeit at different points) both the world's best batsman AND the world's best bowler.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
But peak bowling rating of only 639. Botham is the only player to have exceeded 800 rating points for both batting and bowling (how did country that produced so many no-rounders also produce Botham?)
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Dendarii
International Debutant
His best bowler ranking is perhaps a little artificial. He was ranked 4 at the outbreak of World War 1 and the guys ahead of him didn't play any matches after the war while he played one more in 1924. So they dropped off the rankings, making him the top bowler by default.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, the peak rating required to get to number one back in those days was often much lower. Still, relative to his peers that's an incredible achievement.
Botham's 800+ in both disciplines is extraordinary. He got to number one with the ball and was ranked as high as number three with the bat. Sobers got to number one with the bat and top five with the ball. Kallis and Miller both reached number one in their stronger discipline, and top ten in the other.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
It is the other way round. We were desperate for another Botham until Flintoff came along and tried pretty much anyone.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Further to it being slightly "easier" (if we are being a bit mean-spirited about it) to dominate the rankings back in the early days, Noble and Rhodes both reached number one with the ball and top five with the bat - though Rhodes' batting and bowling peaks were ten years apart - and Frank Woolley reached the top three for both.
Blenkinsop
U19 Captain
It pains me to diss a Northants legend, but David Capel must be a strong candidate for the ultimate Test no-rounder. He played 15 Tests and averaged 15.5 with the bat and 50.7 with the ball.
thierry henry
International Coach
For much of his career, pretty close to specialist batsman level and ineffective with the ball, while masquerading as an elite spinner who could bat a bit. Either way, not a no-rounder.
quincywagstaff
International Debutant
I don't know how Greg Matthews is categorised in all this. Played as a bowling all-rounder and considering as a spinner he averaged 48 he was a major failure in that regard.
But as a batsman he was well above expectations, averaged 41 (4 tons in 33 Tests), yet only once did he play as a Top 6 bat; especially curious considering Oz batting in mid-80s not strong.
But as a batsman he was well above expectations, averaged 41 (4 tons in 33 Tests), yet only once did he play as a Top 6 bat; especially curious considering Oz batting in mid-80s not strong.
bagapath
International Captain
all things considered 195 wickets and 5 centuries at elite level is 195 wickets and 5 centuries in elite level. Big deal indeed
Shastri scored two centuries in West Indies. One against Roberts/ Holding/ Marshall. One against Marshall/ Ambrose/ Walsh / Bishop. three centuries against Pakistan of which two were against Imran, two centuries in one series in England. And the first double hundred by an Asian in Australia. He was a top level test batsman. His pie chucking was an add on. Just with the bat he was on par with Lamb, Gatting, Marsh, Ranatunga, Mohsin and Wright. And that was not bad at all.
Shastri scored two centuries in West Indies. One against Roberts/ Holding/ Marshall. One against Marshall/ Ambrose/ Walsh / Bishop. three centuries against Pakistan of which two were against Imran, two centuries in one series in England. And the first double hundred by an Asian in Australia. He was a top level test batsman. His pie chucking was an add on. Just with the bat he was on par with Lamb, Gatting, Marsh, Ranatunga, Mohsin and Wright. And that was not bad at all.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
RE Vettori: I'd say it was really the middle part of his career when he was a genuine no-rounder
Phase 1 (Pre 2000 back injury) - the specialist bowler phase, raw but effective spin bowling and handy lower-order hacky runs. Took his first 100 wickets at around 32 and a strike rate of 76, pretty good for a guy who was still only 18-21 at the time - and unlike his later career, his numbers aren't padded from bullying club-standard Zim and Bangladesh sides.
Phase 2 (2000-04) - the no-rounder phase, accurate but nude spin bowling and modest returns with the bat. Once you subtract his Zimbang performances his average balloons out to 42 at a strike rate of 93 for the remainder of his career. His numbers are even worse in this phase, averaging 52 with the ball and 24 with the bat
Phase 3 (2004-11) - the batting allrounder phase, His batting from 2004 onwards became almost good enough to justify selection on its own (particularly given how weak NZ's batting resources were at the time). Averaging roughly 37 with the bat and ball (while picking up 3 wickets a game) doesn't really deserve no-rounder status imo.
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TheBrand
First Class Debutant
Mark Craig, batting average of 36, bowling average of 46 over 15 tests. Funnily enough, his last test wicket was Kohli in India. Always thought he could have been better with the ball, although did win us 2 tests, (one in UAE and one at the Basin) and looked like his bowling turned a corner in what turned out to be his last test match against India in India. Sodhi, Santner and Craig were our spinners and he looked the best of all 3.
Was actually a great player to watch with the bat though, left handed elegance at times.
Was actually a great player to watch with the bat though, left handed elegance at times.
TheJediBrah
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Shane Thomson
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Wouldn't really call Craig an norounder. His batting wasn't good enough for long enough to really have ever factored into the selectors decision-making. The fact that he averaged 25 in FC cricket makes me think if he'd hung around in the team long enough his average probably would've settled around 20. More just a inaccurate spinner who had a couple of good days with both bat and ball.
Thomson is a great pick. Had a brief phase in 1994 when his batting seemed to click (hit that wonderful 120 v Wasim and Waqar to win NZ a test from nowhere) but otherwise just a nothing spinner and an underachieving bat.
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Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Thomson actually started as a medium pacer but then moved to spin. At one stage in the early 90s NZ actually had lots of young all rounders who were promising: Cairns, Harris, Thomson, Nash, and Jeff Wilson (before he chose rugby).