Indian Cricket Dhaba

[srbhkshk]

by the time you're playing Test cricket you're more or less the finished product. They've definitely improved in the National set up, but they had all the raw ingredients by the time they were picked.

By all means credit Kohli for backing the quicks and sticking with them through their development phase, but he's no way near the 'main factor'. He didn't scout these guys as kids, didn't teach them how to bowl fast, didn't pick them through various age group and domestic cricket tournaments. He did not have a role in the setup of various pace academies, A tours, or the improvement of domestic pitches and schedules to better suit the development quick bowlers. He may have established a high fitness culture, but he is not the physio, he is not setting S&C programs for these guys, and he is not managing their workloads.

With that logic, no captain is ever responsible for doing anything for the team.

 

[CricAddict]

Yes. Bumrah is a MI find. Selectors took a risk in taking him for SA tests and it paid off instantly.
Siraj toiled domestically for quite some time and finally got his chance. Dravid too groomed him well in the A tours.

Giving Kohli the credit for all the pace bowlers is like giving Ganguly the credit for India having a strong batting line-up of Sehwag-Gambhir-Dravid-Sachin-Laxman-Ganguly at that point.

 

[cnerd123]

I mean he sure didn't teach them to bowl, but he uses the pacers to attack and take wickets, not to bowl some random trash leg stump line to keep the runs down.

No way any other Indian captain goes ahead and plays a 4 man pace attack when Ashwin is available for selection, it's a beyond stupid decision, but it's also the decisions of a man who respects and trusts his pacers.

No other Indian captain has ever had the pace talent that Kohli has at his disposal. It's all conjecture. Dhoni would have absolutely loved this pace attack - he spoke often during his time as captain that he needed quick bowlers to win overseas.

 

[Noumenon]

Some solid posts from Cnerd, I thought he only handed out likes.

 

[cnerd123]

With that logic, no captain is ever responsible for doing anything for the team.

Yessss

Most cricketing success is structural, and Indian cricket's obsession with captains is toxic. Captains, at best, can maximise the output of the talent at their disposal. They can be proactive and back a young player early, they can be smart and use resources wisely. But if you want to be a top tier team you need more than just a great captain - you need talent pathways. People to identify players, people to develop them, and domestic cricket structures that prepare players for International cricket. A Tours help a lot too.

Which goes back to my earliest post:

part of the failure of the white ball sides has been poor talent identification and selection as well. Don't think simply replace Virat would solve that problem, but it's a start.

 

[srbhkshk]

No other Indian captain has ever had the pace talent that Kohli has at his disposal. It's all conjecture. Dhoni would have absolutely loved this pace attack - he spoke often during his time as captain that he needed quick bowlers to win overseas.

Dhoni had 3 of the main pacers that Kohli uses available to him, he also had an experienced Zaheer and a few others who are nobodies now but were considered talented at that time.

Why did those pacers not improve under Dhoni? What structural change happened in Kohli's regime that was not available in Dhoni's or even Ganguly's reign?

 

[sunilz]

Dhoni wasn't a good captain for pace bowlers. He was a great captain for spinners.

 

[Noumenon]

Dhoni had 3 of the main pacers that Kohli uses available to him, he also had an experienced Zaheer and a few others who are nobodies now but were considered talented at that time.

Why did those pacers not improve under Dhoni? What structural change happened in Kohli's regime that was not available in Dhoni's or even Ganguly's reign?

You are badgering for the sake of it. A structural change is not like a tap of water, that you install and turn on for results. It takes time. Like solid chunks of time, 5 years, or even a decade before you see results.

Umesh and Ishant are tremendous support bowler and Kohli is lucky he has Bumrah to lead the attack. Dhoni had to work with both of them as his lead bowlers. Have Kohli work with Umesh and Ishant as his lead bowlers and watch him melt.

 

[cnerd123]

The quicks who played under Dhoni are better now because they've played more cricket. More experience, more time to develop their skills. Simple as that.

I've mentioned a few other factors already too - IPL, Bharat Arun, better pitches domestically, more A tours, better S&C + workload management.

If you read the histories of each of our frontline pace attack now you'll see how they were all identified for their pace and groomed accordingly. Back in the old days (like the 70s and 80s) no one was really going out of their way to produce India's next great fast bowler, but now we have coaches all across the country obsessed with this, and it's even showing in our U19 setup.

Ishant playing county cricket was massive for him too, probably turned his career around the same way it did for Zak. International pitches are just better suited for quicks as well, and our selectors haven't been obsessed with turning all pur quicks into 3 format players or the next Kapil Dev.

IPL has also improved our talent pool and our talent identification processes. We're going to have better fast bowlers now just thanks to sheer numbers.

 

[sunilz]

Now , BCCI has denied the news which further confirms the news that Kohli will be removed from captaincy in ODI, T20.

 

[srbhkshk]

You are badgering for the sake of it. A structural change is not like a tap of water, that you install and turn on for results. It takes time. Like solid chunks of time, 5 years, or even a decade before you see results.

Umesh and Ishant are tremendous support bowler and Kohli is lucky he has Bumrah to lead the attack. Dhoni had to work with both of them as his lead bowlers. Have Kohli work with Umesh and Ishant as his lead bowlers and watch him melt.

Quite interesting that this structural change has led us to our poorest batting line up in who knows how many years, I suppose only one thing can improve at a time.

You guys talk as if Dhoni had to go and identify pacers from random villages, he and Ganguly had their own bunch of youngsters and experienced bowlers. It wasn't the 70s or something. The whole of team and India exclaimed about how great a pace attack we had available after the 08 perth test. Wonder why those guys faded into mediocrity.

 

[Nintendo]

Yessss

Most cricketing success is structural, and Indian cricket's obsession with captains is toxic. Captains, at best, can maximise the output of the talent at their disposal. They can be proactive and back a young player early, they can be smart and use resources wisely. But if you want to be a top tier team you need more than just a great captain - you need talent pathways. People to identify players, people to develop them, and domestic cricket structures that prepare players for International cricket. A Tours help a lot too.

Which goes back to my earliest post:

I agree with you to some extent, but feel like it's not 100% true for batsmen. If that where the case then england would have been a beastly ODI team pre morgan taking the captaincy in 2015/16. Sometimes the culture installed by a captain can completely overhaul a team's results for the best or worst.

 

[Noumenon]

our poorest batting line up in who knows how many years

Another emotional/snarky reply. It's true that our current line-up stands a couple levels below the days of Sehwag/Sachin/Laxman/Dravid. And even that line-up bombed often away, across multiple tours of AUS/SAf/NZ/ENG.

OTOH, even in those days, did we have the depth in batting that we have right now? If our poorest batting, as you call them, were to disappear today, India can field another line-up that'll deliver the same level of performance. Did you have that luxury when India's batting was at its very peak?

 

[Noumenon]

Imagine Sehwag ruled out on account of injury on tours of AUS or even at home. We'd have been mauled as a team.

Today, we have the impressive Gill absent and fans have barely noticed it. So how come we have the poorest batting line-up today is something beyond me.

In fact, it's a commentary on Virat's poor judgment of talent that despite all the personnel he has, his insecurity doesn't allow him to look past the failing Rahane.

 

[srbhkshk]

Another emotional/snarky reply. It's true that our current line-up stands a couple levels below the days of Sehwag/Sachin/Laxman/Dravid. And even that line-up bombed often away, across multiple tours of AUS/SAf/NZ/ENG.

OTOH, even in those days, did we have the depth in batting that we have right now? If our poorest batting, as you call them, were to disappear today, India can field another line-up that'll deliver the same level of performance. Did you have that luxury when India's batting was at its very peak?

Firstly, have a little self awareness, you should be the absolute last guy to talk about "snarky" replies.

Secondly, no we aren't even close to having a batting lineup that can do as well as our primary one (unless of course by doing as well you mean they will both **** their pants and get bowled out for <100). We do have a second bowling lineup that will manage though, for whatever reasons.

 

[Noumenon]

We do have a second bowling lineup that will manage though, for whatever reasons.

Think you failed to attribute that to Kohli or is it your day off from reciting Virat Chaleesa?

 

[Noumenon]

Secondly, no we aren't even close to having a batting lineup that can do as well as our primary one

LMAO, yes, we don't have another set of batsmen who can get bowled out for 44 or 78.

 

[honestbharani]

that kohli was far from the only person responsible for this?

Who said that though, in this discussion?

 

[srbhkshk]

Think you failed to attribute that to Kohli or is it your day off from reciting Virat Chaleesa?

Ah yes, the snark specialist comes up with another zinger.

 

[honestbharani]

Yes. Bumrah is a MI find. Selectors took a risk in taking him for SA tests and it paid off instantly.
Siraj toiled domestically for quite some time and finally got his chance. Dravid too groomed him well in the A tours.

Giving Kohli the credit for all the pace bowlers is like giving Ganguly the credit for India having a strong batting line-up of Sehwag-Gambhir-Dravid-Sachin-Laxman-Ganguly at that point.

I mean, Bumrah himself has talked about not playing FC cricket in 2017 with an eye on being unleashed in the SA series as a red ball bowler. There have been multiple interviews of Bewda and Virat talking about Bumrah as a test match bowling option through 2017. But sure, lets credit the selectors and MI who I am sure were very concerned about his red ball prospects.

If Bumrah the test bowler is a MI find, I think we should also call Hazlewood the test bowler a CSK find.