England (and Wales) gloom, doom and recriminations thread

[Flem274*]

cbf finding an even more relevant thread to post this but i don't know how andy caddick only averaged a touch under 30 for you guys. been watching some english highlights reels today and he's a ****ing monster bowler. height + movement at decent pace.

but then im also surprised broad doesn't average 25 and we all know why that is - you need the right version to show up.

 

[Prince EWS]

cbf finding an even more relevant thread to post this but i don't know how andy caddick only averaged a touch under 30 for you guys. been watching some english highlights reels today and he's a ****ing monster bowler. height + movement at decent pace.

but then im also surprised broad doesn't average 25 and we all know why that is - you need the right version to show up.

He did play 30% of his games against a ridiculously good Australian side. I think the averages of England players from that area look a little worse than they could have been due to the length and frequency of the Ashes. Having to play so many games against that team is going to make your record look worse than the equivalent player from other teams.

He averaged 26 against non-Australian teams, 40 against Australia. He obviously came up short against the best of the best but it does unfairly skew how good he was against 'normal' teams.

 

[Flem274*]

He did play 30% of his games against a ridiculously good Australian side. I think the averages of England players from that area look a little worse than they could have been due to the length and frequency of the Ashes. Having to play so many games against that team is going to make your record look worse than the equivalent player from other teams.

He averaged 26 against non-Australian teams, 40 against Australia. He obviously came up short against the best of the best but it does unfairly skew how good he was against 'normal' teams.

This is fair, but I also had a look myself and that 26 is dragged down by eating 90s NZ alive. His record is remarkably consistent barring his enjoyment against NZ and dislike of Aus. Consistently in the 28 - 32 average bracket.

 

[morgieb]

Think the story with Caddick was that England of that era didn't know how to handle anyone that didn't fit into a small box of how a cricketer should behave.

 

[wpdavid]

Maybe he felt that he had a point to prove against NZ as that's where he came from. There is something in how he was handled. Hussain was more sympathetic than Atherton and Stewart, maybe because he was an outsider too. But I often found Caddick frustrating. If conditions suited and if the opposition were having an off day and if Caddick himself was up for it, then he was handful. If not, forget it.

 

[wpdavid]

Then there's the huge discrepancy between his mediocre first innings returns and his much better second innings figures. Caddick used to justify that by saying that matches were decided in teams' second innings, which was patently nonsense.

 

[Bahnz]

Love Caddick just for his obsessive copying of Hadlee right down to the little stutter at the top of his mark. As PEWS would say, Hadlee purchased from Wish.

 

[TheJediBrah]

He did play 30% of his games against a ridiculously good Australian side. I think the averages of England players from that area look a little worse than they could have been due to the length and frequency of the Ashes. Having to play so many games against that team is going to make your record look worse than the equivalent player from other teams.

He averaged 26 against non-Australian teams, 40 against Australia. He obviously came up short against the best of the best but it does unfairly skew how good he was against 'normal' teams.

Never even considered this. Definitely worth keeping in mind.

 

[Chubb]

Caddick's unusual and abrasive personality also clouds people's opinions, I think. Hard to warm to him even when he was beating up the 2000 Windies.

 

[grecian]

Caddick used to bowl much too short in 1st innings, and his abrasive attitude was such that he refused to acknowledge it and kept bowling that way, despite it clearly being detrimental to him and the side.

I think you can understand why his team may not have loved him for that. Btw Gough only averaged 2 more than is normal average against Oz.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Goughy rose to the occasion of the Ashes. Bowled very well against Australia for some reason, maybe just that competitive nature

 

[Starfighter]

Love Caddick just for his obsessive copying of Hadlee

Yet his action doesn't look all that much like Hadlee's.

 

[SteveNZ]

Caddick used to bowl much too short in 1st innings, and his abrasive attitude was such that he refused to acknowledge it and kept bowling that way, despite it clearly being detrimental to him and the side.

I think you can understand why his team may not have loved him for that. Btw Gough only averaged 2 more than is normal average against Oz.

That's my memory of him as well. He must've been 6'4 or so I'd wager, and to me it felt like he enjoyed the machismo of bowling back of a length and thudding into the keeper's gloves over pitching it up and nicking guys out. Probably did that in Australia, too

 

[Pothas]

Well this thread had a nice week off.

 

[honestbharani]

You can thank @sledger @GIMH and yourself tbh.

 

[Pothas]

Yeah but I got to enjoy the hope. Is way more fun than assuming you are going to lose.

 

[honestbharani]

This has been a terrific bowling display though. Its not like they just rolled over. And honestly, India has been on enough chases like this in the 4th innings. It can be extremely demoralizing when 2 or 3 fall in quick succession after a partnership and batsmen start thinking very differently. This team deserves more chances. The changes have been good IMO. Malan looks a good #3, Hameed is iffy but unless you back Crawley in Australia (and I would) he is your next best bet. Pope V Lawrence can be debated. Bairstow should do well in Australia. Root is Bradman right now. If you get Stokes, Wood fit, you are in with a shout IMO.

 

[Pothas]

Feel like Stokes not being around has not been mentioned all that much. Maybe it is just so obvious what a difference it makes that nobody feels the need to say it.

 

[Uppercut]

Burns - looks like an alright player
Hameed - doesn't look great to me but should be kept around in the absence of any convincing alternatives
Malan - looks ok, and he's been good in Australia before so he'll tour
Root - great batsman but his captaincy is still costing England, fielding first here was a blunder. Ideally they need a way to let him go without causing too much drama.
Pope - looked good here and I'd be inclined to give him a run in the side. He may be mediocre, but he has far more potential than any of England's other mediocre batsmen.
Bairstow - ehh, feel like Australia would be very happy to see him tour. Buttler is a bit better, but also not great. Not sure they needed to be so brutal with Lawrence but I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion.
Ali - immensely likeable guy but he really shouldn't be playing. Not the right type of bowler for an otherwise strong attack.
Woakes, Robinson, Anderson - all excellent
Overton - looks OK but Root clearly doesn't rate him. Might be replaced with Wood for OT which doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

 

[GIMH]

Feel like Stokes not being around has not been mentioned all that much. Maybe it is just so obvious what a difference it makes that nobody feels the need to say it.

Yeah, games like this one in particular. His bowling was always a breaker in spells like we were having yesterday and Saturday. And obviously he goes okay in a chase.,..