Who was the better bowler: Glenn Mcgrath or Wasim Akram?

[Flem274*]

D'you reckon? Players being picked for their slip fielding feels like pretty much the antithesis to modern selection which considers fielding to be pretty much an afterthought. Like, people have been moaning about wicketkeeping skill being ever more neglected by selectors for decades.

In Guptill's case it's his one day batting that kept him in the team I'd think.

Nah, it was a mixture of fielding and being resigned to the fact he might be the best option. The fielding of he and McIntosh in particular were mentioned often in favour of their retentions. The Marshall twins also benefited from this.

They would have been dropped faster if they were average fielders. Rob Nicol, Aaron Redmond and the like were cut rapidly.

 

[Chrish]

McGrath was simply a step up from any other bowler not named Marshall.

I personally think yes but there is an argument for half-dozen other bowlers as well. There have been too many of great fast bowlers over the years.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah, I tend to see it as those 5 in the top tier as well.
Marshall
Steyn
McGrath
Hadlee
Ambrose

Probably a little gap between McGrath and Hadlee. ??‍

I love Steyn but he gets rated too highly here.

 

[kyear2]

I tend to rate Imran above Ambrose

Genuinely asking why? Personally Imran is back half of my top ten of not borderline in at all. Of all the great bowlers, the gap between his home and away records are massive, and it makes less sense when one factors in his home tracks didn't favor fast bowling.

 

[kyear2]

I personally think yes but there is an argument for half-dozen other bowlers as well. There have been too many of great fast bowlers over the years.

I don't know, there is a group of about 5 that has, at least in my mind separated themselves front that next group. The Donald's, Lillee's, Garners, Trueman's etc.

 

[Flem274*]

I think the gaps are marginal at best but I do understand. I think it's because we give unconscious bonus points to being the best of your era or at something you have.

McGrath, Marshall and Steyn were the best of their eras. Hadlee combined Anderson's longevity with near Marshall performance. Ambrose is the tallest of the uber-bowlers and had near McGrath performance. Cummins will probably join this group for the same reasons and McGrath and co.

McGrath, Marshall, Steyn, Hadlee, Ambrose is my top 5 I'm happy with and below that things get murky. Maybe Garner at 6 for being the best ever first change bowler.

 

[kyear2]

I think the gaps are marginal at best but I do understand. I think it's because we give unconscious bonus points to being the best of your era or at something you have.

McGrath, Marshall and Steyn were the best of their eras. Hadlee combined Anderson's longevity with near Marshall performance. Ambrose is the tallest of the uber-bowlers and had near McGrath performance. Cummins will probably join this group for the same reasons and McGrath and co.

McGrath, Marshall, Steyn, Hadlee, Ambrose is my top 5 I'm happy with and below that things get murky. Maybe Garner at 6 for being the best ever first change bowler.

Your top 5 is the same as mine, if in different order. And after that it does get murky between Donald, Lillee, Akram, Garner, Trueman, Imran etc.

And as great as Garner was as a first change, he was probably briefly part of arguably the greatest opening pair ever. But he was never a no. 1 for his own team.

 

[subshakerz]

I think the gaps are marginal at best but I do understand. I think it's because we give unconscious bonus points to being the best of your era or at something you have.

McGrath, Marshall and Steyn were the best of their eras. Hadlee combined Anderson's longevity with near Marshall performance. Ambrose is the tallest of the uber-bowlers and had near McGrath performance. Cummins will probably join this group for the same reasons and McGrath and co.

McGrath, Marshall, Steyn, Hadlee, Ambrose is my top 5 I'm happy with and below that things get murky. Maybe Garner at 6 for being the best ever first change bowler.

Steyn was the best of his era but watching him ball, even as a fan, I wouldnt put him in that top tier. Easily the most hittable ATG. You couldnt smack McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee or Ambrose with that frequency.

 

[kyear2]

Steyn was the best of his era but watching him ball, even as a fan, I wouldnt put him in that top tier. Easily the most hittable ATG. You couldnt smack McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee or Ambrose with that frequency.

While that was true, he was also more attacking. So while he was tagged from time to time, his strike rate somewhat made up for it. He was always attacking and so mistakes were more common.

 

[smash84]

Steyn was the best of his era but watching him ball, even as a fan, I wouldnt put him in that top tier. Easily the most hittable ATG. You couldnt smack McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee or Ambrose with that frequency.

yes but Steyn could run through an ATG indian batting lineup in Indian conditions. He could run through any side in any conditions when on song. Not sure any others could stake such a claim.

 

[Chrish]

I tend to agree with subshakerz a lot but this is a weird take.

Steyn is the best non-Asian pace bowler to tour Asia. Period. For all his low economy and misery style bowling, someone like McGrath never ran though the sides in Asia, while Steyn regularly did. This alone counts for something.

 

[Slifer]

yes but Steyn could run through an ATG indian batting lineup in Indian conditions. He could run through any side in any conditions when on song. Not sure any others could stake such a claim.

Marshall could and did

 

[TheJediBrah]

I tend to agree with subshakerz a lot but this is a weird take.

Steyn is the best non-Asian pace bowler to tour Asia. Period. For all his low economy and misery style bowling, someone like McGrath never ran though the sides in Asia, while Steyn regularly did. This alone counts for something.

Sure anything could count for something but just because you like it doesn't mean it's the definitive feature. If subshakerz thinks that being "hittable" is a more important factor than "running through sides in Asia" then that's perfectly fine and reasonable. Definitely not a weird take.

Personally I find holding "running through sides in Asia" on a pedestal as a definitive qualification to be a weird take

 

[smash84]

Sure anything could count for something but just because you like it doesn't mean it's the definitive feature. If subshakerz thinks that being "hittable" is a more important factor than "running through sides in Asia" then that's perfectly fine and reasonable. Definitely not a weird take.

Personally I find holding "running through sides in Asia" on a pedestal as a definitive qualification to be a weird take

When did he say it is definitive? He said it counts for something.

 

[Flem274*]

Personally I find holding "running through sides in Asia" on a pedestal as a definitive qualification to be a weird take

because it's so funny. they think they're safe, and then nooooope.

similarly it's entertaining watching a western side fall to bits against some random subcontinent spinner in their own conditions, though i can't remember the last time that happened tbh. ashwin, jadeja and president washington made a mess in aus but i can't recall if they got the big 5fers.

 

[smash84]

Marshall could and did

True.

Although I was thinking more of Ambrose and McGrath when I made that comment.

 

[Burgey]

It almost seems staged

Hmmm. Interesting.

Very, very interesting.

Aussie bros love overrating their players

This from the fella who rates Jasprit Bumrah over Glenn McGrath.

 

[Slifer]

I tend to agree with subshakerz a lot but this is a weird take.

Steyn is the best non-Asian pace bowler to tour Asia. Period. For all his low economy and misery style bowling, someone like McGrath never ran though the sides in Asia, while Steyn regularly did. This alone counts for something.

Call me crazy, but I'd give that title to Walsh honestly....

 

[subshakerz]

I tend to agree with subshakerz a lot but this is a weird take.

Steyn is the best non-Asian pace bowler to tour Asia. Period. For all his low economy and misery style bowling, someone like McGrath never ran though the sides in Asia, while Steyn regularly did. This alone counts for something.

Allow me to make my case.

Steyn was one of my favorites when he was playing, and I would put him in the top 10 ever, and better than Donald also.

But compared with the cream of the crop given here (Hadlee, Marshall, McGrath and Ambrose), Steyn lacked the consistency, even in his prime.

Yes, he had the best strikerate of all of them, but conversely had the highest econ rate. Which means when he wasn't getting wickets, he was getting tonked around.

I saw this happen to Steyn throughout his career. For one test in the series he would be godly, then the rest of the series rather pedestrian. After his fantastic 10-fer in Kanpur, the next test he was taken to the cleaners by Sehwag and Tendulkar. Before his terrific Perth performance in 2012, he was thrashed by Clarke and co prior to the series. There are many other examples. He was rarely consistently great throughout a series.

I think for a best ever ATG bowler, and especially as a lead bowler of the attack, you need to be able to apply pressure and sustain quality even when you are not taking wickets. So I would opt for an ATG bowler who is more miserly since at least he can prevent the opposition from dominating, even if he needs to take slightly longer to take a wicket.

And I dont know what you guys mean about Steyn running through sides, its not like the other four didn't do that as well, including in Asia?

And yes, Steyn was the best non-Asian pacer in Asia ever, but conversely his record in England and Australia is comparatively moderate.

 

[subshakerz]

Call me crazy, but I'd give that title to Walsh honestly....

Steyn won matches in Sri Lanka too, Walsh didn't do that.