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Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

Imran or Ambrose (Test)?

  • Total voters
    54
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
The best opposition of Curtlys time was Australia not Pakistan. And Ambrose completely bodied Australia where most of his contemporaries failed.

Also, Ambrose's record in Asia isn't bad at all, 6 tests at 22 odd. Even limiting it to just Pakistan, it's 15 wkts in 5 tests at 25. Not awful by any means.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Slifer said:
The best opposition of Curtlys time was Australia not Pakistan. And Ambrose completely bodied Australia where most of his contemporaries failed.

Also, Ambrose's record in Asia isn't bad at all, 6 tests at 22 odd. Even limiting it to just Pakistan, it's 15 wkts in 5 tests at 25. Not awful by any means.
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Yeah, 6 tests in the subcontinent out of 98 and no India is not a huge sample size. Not saying he would have failed, but the vast majority of his cricket on supportive pitches. They usually deduct points for that Lillee, why not Ambrose?
 
trundler

trundler

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Lillee's 'failure' in the subcontinent, as well as Imran supposedly being a (relative nobody) away, are both concocted criticisms that no one actually believes in though.

I'm just going to tag in @OverratedSanity to do his yearly ritual of bringing up concocted holes in Sobers's record to counter this.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
subshakerz said:
Yeah, 6 tests in the subcontinent out of 98 and no India is not a huge sample size. Not saying he would have failed, but the vast majority of his cricket on supportive pitches. They usually deduct points for that Lillee, why not Ambrose?
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Lillee and Ambrose are apples and oranges. Lillee mainly played in 3 countries. Ambrose played in all but one. And the one chance he had to play in India, he was injured. The fact is, he was more than passable in Asia.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
trundler said:
Lillee's 'failure' in the subcontinent, as well as Imran supposedly being a (relative nobody) away, are both concocted criticisms that no one actually believes in though.

I'm just going to tag in @OverratedSanity to do his yearly ritual of bringing up concocted holes in Sobers's record to counter this.
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Not saying or ever said that that Imran was awful, he is an ATG player, and I have him as a borderline top 10 bowler or all time.

But you can't ignore the fact that he averaged 19 at home in what is acknowledged as less helpful bowling conditions and 26 away.

I'm not saying he's bad, just not in my absolute top tier. I think that's fair.
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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Ambrose comfortably better bowler, Imran better cricketer
Chrish said:
As silly as it may sound, why should Ambrose get away with not performing against every opposition while other players are penalized for the same criteria? Just an observation on this site.
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This forum is obsessed with "performing against every opposition, in every country" to the excess. Almost always used in the attempt to discredit someone the poster has already decided they don't like. It's become tiresome.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
Not saying or ever said that that Imran was awful, he is an ATG player, and I have him as a borderline top 10 bowler or all time.

But you can't ignore the fact that he averaged 19 at home in what is acknowledged as less helpful bowling conditions and 26 away.

I'm not saying he's bad, just not in my absolute top tier. I think that's fair.
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Averaging 19 in Pakistan is a phenomenal achievement.

As for 25 abroad, I think its better to look beyond just a raw number. He didnt average 30 plus in any country, whereas even guys like McGrath, Steyn, Hadlee and Marshall did.

I also personally dont really think the years he spent as a batsman and part-time pacer are really reflective of his actual bowling career, but that is just me.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Averaging 19 in Pakistan is a phenomenal achievement.

As for 25 abroad, I think its better to look beyond just a raw number. He didnt average 30 plus in any country, whereas even guys like McGrath, Steyn, Hadlee and Marshall did.

I also personally dont really think the years he spent as a batsman and part-time pacer are really reflective of his actual bowling career, but that is just me.
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And you're missing my point. If you're good enough to average 19 in Pakistan you should killing it in places like England.
So no, averaging 19 in Pakistan wasn't that phenomenal an achievement.

And again, not saying that he was a bum, but let's keep it in perspective.

There are reasons some may do better or be expected to do better at home. Murali, Indian spinners just to give a couple examples, but don't say that Pakistan was harder for pacers to excel, then perform considerably better there than anywhere else, and by some margin and everyone acts like it's normal.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Slifer said:
The best opposition of Curtlys time was Australia not Pakistan. And Ambrose completely bodied Australia where most of his contemporaries failed.

Also, Ambrose's record in Asia isn't bad at all, 6 tests at 22 odd. Even limiting it to just Pakistan, it's 15 wkts in 5 tests at 25. Not awful by any means.
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Nope. 1988 to 1994 circa it was Pakistan as second best side. Australia was the best side from 1995 onwards. Ambrose never bowled to the early and mid 2000 Aussie side which was the best.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
And you're missing my point. If you're good enough to average 19 in Pakistan you should killing it in places like England.
So no, averaging 19 in Pakistan wasn't that phenomenal an achievement.

And again, not saying that he was a bum, but let's keep it in perspective.

There are reasons some may do better or be expected to do better at home. Murali, Indian spinners just to give a couple examples, but don't say that Pakistan was harder for pacers to excel, then perform considerably better there than anywhere else, and by some margin and everyone acts like it's normal.
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Well, as far as England goes, he played some early cricket there in 1971/74 when he was not even a proper bowler or cricketer, and then had two terrific series in 82 and 87.

It is hard to evaluate Imran's bowling career the same way as others IMO, since he started his career in the early 70s as not even a bowler, and post 89 he basically was a batsman who gave some bowling support. If he couldnt bat at that point, he would not have stayed on as a cricketer. I guess it goes to how well does his record reflect his overall quality as a bowler

Having said that, I dont mind putting McGrath, Hadlee and Marshall ahead of him for a more well-rounded record at the end of the day, but in my view the gap between them is much more slight than just what raw figures show.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
kyear2 said:
And you're missing my point. If you're good enough to average 19 in Pakistan you should killing it in places like England.
So no, averaging 19 in Pakistan wasn't that phenomenal an achievement.

And again, not saying that he was a bum, but let's keep it in perspective.

There are reasons some may do better or be expected to do better at home. Murali, Indian spinners just to give a couple examples, but don't say that Pakistan was harder for pacers to excel, then perform considerably better there than anywhere else, and by some margin and everyone acts like it's normal.
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Although not with the discussion, Murali actually averaged better than home in England and Bangladesh. Almost similar in New Zealand. His numberes suffered by playing a host of matches in India unlike any other spinner.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Well, as far as England goes, he played some early cricket there in 1971/74 when he was not even a proper bowler or cricketer, and then had two terrific series in 82 and 87.

It is hard to evaluate Imran's bowling career the same way as others IMO, since he started his career in the early 70s as not even a bowler, and post 89 he basically was a batsman who gave some bowling support. If he couldnt bat at that point, he would not have stayed on as a cricketer. I guess it goes to how well does his record reflect his overall quality as a bowler

Having said that, I dont mind putting McGrath, Hadlee and Marshall ahead of him for a more well-rounded record at the end of the day, but in my view the gap between them is much more slight than just what raw figures show.
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And in my opinion, it's larger.

Everyone has situations where they weren't as good at the beginning or end of their careers, and what they end up with is where they averaged out.

Richards and Ponting had disappointing ends to their careers while Sobers and Smith started out as spin bowlers and the former had the added burden of being worked near to death as a bowler. And those are just 4 examples..

Imran averaged 19 in Pakistan because of favorable, even by the time's standard, umpiring. I don't see how that's even disputable at this point, it skews his record.
 
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