*Official* Second Test at Lord's - Aug 12-16 2021

[Anil]

Don’t think there have been too many lineups that have been this dependent on one batsman…to his credit Root has been fantastic under that kind of pressure, just hate that he is doing it against us…

 

[sunilz]

Don’t think there have been too many lineups that have been this dependent on one batsman…to his credit Root has been fantastic under that kind of pressure, just hate that he is doing it against us…

Australia on Steve Smith

 

[Bijed]

Kohli not in the top 3 in my books.

Smith and Babar are the two best. 3 is up for grabs.

Babar had an absolutely brilliant little run after making his first test ton, but his output has been pretty meh since his last one (current test excepted, he's averaged 29 over 7 tests since then). I'm not it was a flash in the pan or anything as his ODI career has proven that he's class but he needs to start making runs again in tests before I start thinking of him as a big gun in the format.

 

[Uppercut]

Joe Root reclaims his spot as the only English batsman to average 50 since the great Ken Barrington I believe. How come England didn't even sneak a Jayawardena/Hussey/Yousuf type player into the 50+ club during the 2000s?

Mostly just because batting in England was harder then too. Cook, KP or Trott could maybe have done it in another timeline. Someone like Ballance might have had a serious career if he’d been born in the subcontinent a decade earlier.

 

[Bijed]

Mostly just because batting in England was harder then too. Cook, KP or Trott could maybe have done it in another timeline. Someone like Ballance might have had a serious career if he’d been born in the subcontinent a decade earlier.

I know it's not exactly what trundler was asking, but I checked KP on statsguru for the period up to 31 December 2009 and he averaged 49.98 in that time, he was literally 1 run off averaging 50 in that timeframe. FWIW he averaged 54.90 in England over that period

 

[trundler]

All true, of course but still I meant over a full career, like Hussey and Jaya who clearly weren't 50+ batsmen if you saw them bat away from home yet still filled their boots at the buffet.

 

[sunilz]

Joe Root reclaims his spot as the only English batsman to average 50 since the great Ken Barrington I believe. How come England didn't even sneak a Jayawardena/Hussey/Yousuf type player into the 50+ club during the 2000s?

Where are you checking ?I can see 49.82 ?

 

[grecian]

Mostly just because batting in England was harder then too. Cook, KP or Trott could maybe have done it in another timeline. Someone like Ballance might have had a serious career if he’d been born in the subcontinent a decade earlier.

They discussed this on Sky, interestingly Barrington the only one to do it since the second World War, which maybe cements him as the most under-rated cricketer ever.

I have some doubts though, I mean pitches aren't great but pretty sure I could find about a dozen forns in that time, that have averaged well over 50 in that time in this country. Just think we have a problem, like with football in having true greats, there seems to be a boring reversion to the mean in the English personality.

In fact in a 2005 Ashes doc didn't a few of the team say KP won it for them because he didn't have the English mentality, mind you he learnt it over the next 10 years I reckon, not withstanding the odd exceptional innings.

Oh and Jayawardene didn't average 50 in the end.

 

[trundler]

Where are you checking ?I can see 49.82 ?

If it's on Cricinfo they update after each test

 

[Uppercut]

All true, of course but still I meant over a full career, like Hussey and Jaya who clearly weren't 50+ batsmen if you saw them bat away from home yet still filled their boots at the buffet.

Hussey was a bit of a perfect storm. He debuted at his peak, didn’t go on too long past it, and his career largely coincided with the flat pitch era. If he was English he’d have played a lot more when he wasn’t at his best, as well as facing tougher conditions a bit more often.

I think he’d go well today. He was great in the 2010/11 Ashes, which was probably the best bowling he faced. But yeah to put it bluntly there aren’t many worse batsmen with 50+ career averages.

 

[Bijed]

If it's on Cricinfo they update after each test

I presume he's looking at his Cricbuzz profile, which is updated live - same amount of runs so it's not a slight delay.

From the maths, Cricbuzz is basically including an extra out and I seem to recall Root retiring due to sickness in the final innings of the 2017/18 Ashes being recorded as retired hurt of Cricinfo and retired out on Cricbuzz (they showed significantly different series averages), so I guess that never got sorted and is still throwing Cricbuzz out

 

[sunilz]

If it's on Cricinfo they update after each test

Cricbuzz, they have updated I think.

 

[grecian]

I know it's not exactly what trundler was asking, but I checked KP on statsguru for the period up to 31 December 2009 and he averaged 49.98 in that time, he was literally 1 run off averaging 50 in that timeframe. FWIW he averaged 54.90 in England over that period

Weren't Cook and Trott over 50 for a good bit?

 

[sunilz]

Weren't Cook and Trott over 50 for a good bit?

Trott averaged 60 at one point

 

[Bijed]

Weren't Cook and Trott over 50 for a good bit?

Cook had definitely dropped to mid-low 40s by the end of the decade, Trott may well have averaged over 50 at that point due to having barely started and starting well, although he didn't do that much in his second series (away in SA) so depending on exact timings, possibly not.

If you not talking about specific timeframes though, yeah, they both had excellent averages at the start of their careers.

 

[Uppercut]

They discussed this on Sky, interestingly Barrington the only one to do it since the second World War, which maybe cements him as the most under-rated cricketer ever.

I have some doubts though, I mean pitches aren't great but pretty sure I could find about a dozen forns in that time, that have averaged well over 50 in that time in this country. Just think we have a problem, like with football in having true greats, there seems to be a boring reversion to the mean in the English personality.

In fact in a 2005 Ashes doc didn't a few of the team say KP won it for them because he didn't have the English mentality, mind you he learnt it over the next 10 years I reckon, not withstanding the odd exceptional innings.

Oh and Jayawardene didn't average 50 in the end.

Yeah don’t get me wrong, England’s long-term failure to produce good batsmen is a big part of the story.

I’m sure there are plenty of plausible theories. I’m tempted to blame Boycott for instilling a culture of fearful batting. I don’t think other countries had the same hang-ups about getting out playing attacking shots. The English pundits, especially Boycott, used to get quite personal about it. Getting out cutting or sweeping was stupid, selfish, irresponsible, pathetic. Waiting patiently to nick a length ball was the only acceptable way to get out.

 

[trundler]

Chopping up careers defeats the purpose of what I'm saying. That throws up yer Samaraweera's and Jimmy Adams in there too. Having 0 of anything still stands out usually even if you account for all the limiting factors imo. Clarke and Inzi were easily better than Jaya/Yousuf/Hussey too. Boycott, for example, averaging 47.xx over 108 tests and 20 years certainly worth more than any 00s bully who feasted on attacks led by the might of Andre Nel and Zaheer Khan as his toughest assignment.

 

[grecian]

Cook had definitely dropped to mid-low 40s by the end of the decade, Trott may well have averaged over 50 at that point due to having barely started and starting well, although he didn't do that much in his second series (away in SA) so depending on exact timings, possibly not.

If you not talking about specific timeframes though, yeah, they both had excellent averages at the start of their careers.

No I'm not talking specific timeframes. Obviously there were plenty that averaged over 50 for awhile, but doing it at roots stage in his career is obviously unique.

I remember Tim Robinson, what an amazing fall from grace that was, over 61 average to a joke character.

 

[Bijed]

No I'm not talking specific timeframes. Obviously there were plenty that averaged over 50 for awhile, but doing it at roots stage in his career is obviously unique.

I remember Tim Robinson, what an amazing fall from grace that was, over 61 average to a joke character.

Yeah, we've had a few start really well but drop off sharply. Ballance averaged 60+ after his first few series

 

[grecian]

Yeah don’t get me wrong, England’s long-term failure to produce good batsmen is a big part of the story.

I’m sure there are plenty of plausible theories. I’m tempted to blame Boycott for instilling a culture of fearful batting. I don’t think other countries had the same hang-ups about getting out playing attacking shots. The English pundits, especially Boycott, used to get quite personal about it. Getting out cutting or sweeping was stupid, selfish, irresponsible, pathetic. Waiting patiently to nick a length ball was the only acceptable way to get out.

Oh won't blame Boycott for it specifically, as objectionable as he was, but yeah been saying it for years, the fact that Gatting's reverse sweep seems to have been castigated beyond all reasonableness, when they were in an alright position at the time in that WC final, and there were about 5 other silly but conventional dismissals after which don't get mentioned, put us back 20 years in thinking.

Oh and whilst everyone says Barrington was a lovely bloke and as I say hugely under-rated batsman, he was a hideously negative coach, but he wasn't alone.

It's an ethos in our sporting tradition, that wants to eradicate genius for technical perfection. Root may well do a bit of both, so get through the mire..