Top 30 batsmen of the modern era (1990s -Current)

[TheJediBrah]

But I hope you’re not arguing that we should take this into account when trying to make an objective assessment of how good a player was.

Really? I have been very clear the whole time. I even specifically reiterated that I was not saying that. The reason I brought it up, again which I was very clear about, was in direct response to this comment:

When you are rating spin bowlers, especially of 90s and 00s, record against India is certainly more important than against any other team.

 

[Burgey]

Daemon is a pretty simple fella.

 

[Daemon]

Really? I have been very clear the whole time. I even specifically reiterated that I was not saying that. The reason I brought it up, again which I was very clear about, was in direct response to this comment:

I didn’t think you were, which is why I thought I’d clear the confusion for everyone. You looked like you needed help.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I didn’t think you were, which is why I thought I’d clear the confusion for everyone. You looked like you needed help.

I do appreciate that. If people actually read what they were responding to rather than carrying on like a pack of hyenas it wouldn't be necessary

 

[harsh.ag]

You responded to a comment about which countries were more important for spinners to succeed against from a skills pov with a comment about which countries were more important for Aussie spinners to succeed against from a more important rivalry pov, and then give others **** about how they can't read.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You responded to a comment about which countries were more important for spinners to succeed against from a skills pov with a comment about which countries were more important for Aussie spinners to succeed against from a more important rivalry pov, and then give others **** about how they can't read.

Come on you're better than this. We were specifically talking about MacGill. I can spell out the chain of events for you but ffs it shouldn't be necessary.

Guy specifically said MacGill shouldn't be rated as high because he "would have been murdered against India". That's how this started.

 

[harsh.ag]

Come on you're better than this. We were specifically talking about MacGill. I can spell out the chain of events for you but ffs it shouldn't be necessary.

Guy specifically said MacGill shouldn't be rated as high because he "would have been murdered against India". That's how this started.

Yeah, and he was speaking from a skills pov. Am not saying he was right because it's far from certain how MacGill would have done against India. But you shifted the goalposts quite significantly in your response without acknowledging that's what you were doing.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Jason Krezja took 12fer against India in India. Is he better than MacGil?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah, and he was speaking from a skills pov. Am not saying he was right because it's far from certain how MacGill would have done against India. But you shifted the goalposts quite significantly in your response without acknowledging that's what you were doing.

Which is still not a fair statement. Skills that are effective against India aren't by default the most important. Me and ankitj just went over this.

And ftr ankitj isn't the one I'm having a crack on for carrying on about irrelevant trash. I like sunilz but he throws a lot of stupid **** against the wall sometimes.

 

[harsh.ag]

Which is still not a fair statement. Skills that are effective against India aren't by default the most important. Me and ankitj just went over this.

And ftr ankitj isn't the one I'm having a crack on for carrying on about irrelevant trash. I like sunilz but he throws a lot of stupid **** against the wall sometimes.

Yeah, fair enough. This is debatable. Saqlain did decently against India and he sucked in SA and Windies.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah, fair enough. This is debatable. Saqlain did decently against India and he sucked in SA and Windies.

That's the point I was making. If you are MacGill, which was the topic of discussion, Australian in the 90s/early 00s then the most "important" skills would be the ones most effective against West Indies and England, and maybe South Africa.

If hypothetically beating India was the most important thing in that period of time then it's possible that MacGill wouldn't have been held in as high regard (and some dirty finger spinner instead), and even conceivable that he might have focused on a slightly different skillset. But that's all very rough speculation

 

[harsh.ag]

That's the point I was making. If you are MacGill, which was the topic of discussion, Australian in the 90s/early 00s then the most "important" skills would be the ones most effective against West Indies and England, and maybe South Africa.

If hypothetically beating India was the most important thing in that period of time then it's possible that MacGill wouldn't have been held in as high regard (and some dirty finger spinner instead), and even conceivable that he might have focused on a slightly different skillset. But that's all very rough speculation

True. But this is not generalizable (not saying you're saying that it is). Warne focused on developing a skillset for India after a while and it didn't work.

IF one had to choose, as skill absolutism for spinners in the 90s and 00s, performance against India would be a better yardstick (not a good one or a perfect one) than performances against, say, England or Windies or SA. Saqlain is more of an aberration than anything else.

 

[TheJediBrah]

IF one had to choose, as skill absolutism for spinners in the 90s and 00s, performance against India would be a better yardstick (not a good one or a perfect one) than performances against, say, England or Windies or SA. Saqlain is more of an aberration than anything else.

I don't agree with that at all, but I can udnerstand your logic

 

[srbhkshk]

Jason Krezja took 12fer against India in India. Is he better than MacGil?

He is but Root is even better.

 

[Gob]

Jason Krezja took 12fer against India in India. Is he better than MacGil?

It's all about the length

 

[Gob]

I thought Warne was very good in India in 04 and that was without having to bowl on that rolled mud strip. Could have easily end up picking a bag there and end up averaging around 20 but still picked up important wickets

Without going to Stephen length, I do believe Warne ran in to India very often when he wasn't at his best

 

[ankitj]

Without going to Stephen length, I do believe Warne ran in to India very often when he wasn't at his best

OK, what happened in ODIs then?

 

[Gob]

OK, what happened in ODIs then?

I have no idea

To add more substance to the post Warne was a much inferior OD bowler compared to the test bowler he was but that's obvious

 

[honestbharani]

I thought Warne was very good in India in 04

He was and was still smashed by the likes of Parthiv, Irfan and Kaif. Which is the whole point. If we are playing the excuses game, the entirety of the Indian batting line up were in a collective flunk during that period. They sucked across formats and the last days of John Wright as coach were extremely painful. And inspite of all that, Warne could only manage figures like 6/150 or whatever he managed. It should also be noted that series had a very home deck for Australia in the Nagpur test and that their batting were very good across the series enabling Warne to bowl with better support than he had in 1998 at least. He did bowl on the back of a lot of runs in 2001.

But the thing was he was always the guy who posed the least problems in the attack in 2004, inspite of all that. I would argue his performances in some innings in 98 and even 2001 were better, skillswise.

 

[Flem274*]

it's most important for spinners to show up when they are expected to be the match winners. while it is an impressive and probably series defining event for your spinner (or your quicks) to show up in situations where they're not the expected match winner, their bread and butter is winning games when it turns.

so objectively SENA spinners turning up in asia is crucial. if you can't do it then you're usually just a support bowler at best and massively nerf your teams chance of series success.

to flip it, it's no secret sri lanka get mauled in oceania because they show up with hawke cup standard pacemen. even with herath and some good batsmen there's just too much being asked of 8 players to cover how far behind their opponents 3 players are.

TJB is right though that emotional value to a country does not always match objective value. howsie dropped the stat australia haven't won an away series in 5 years but if australia still had their home record completely intact i don't think the cricketing public would realise that stat exists. in fact im not sure they do now. they've got the ashes, and if they had the border-gavaskar still i think the average fan would consider them really good and #1.