Top 30 batsmen of the modern era (1990s -Current)

[subshakerz]

I agree with all those who say wait until Smith's career is over. However, for the sake of this exercise, if Smith did not play another day of cricket in his life, then he has scored enough to be considered the clear number 2. Or at least be in the same conversation as the other greats. It is an error to just assume he will have a dip. He might get better. Waugh got better, Sangakara got better. Tendulkar had a dip but then had another surge, Lara had a dip and then another surge.
Lara was the undisputed king of scoring huge runs. That he did not have an average over 60 also testifies that there were some lean patches. Smith might have a lean patch. He might be in one right now. But it is all conjecture.

I am speculating, but I think we may already be entering Smith's dip. He hasn't scored mightily since 2019 despite playing on home grounds against relatively weaker attacks.

 

[anil1405]

I agree with all those who say wait until Smith's career is over. However, for the sake of this exercise, if Smith did not play another day of cricket in his life, then he has scored enough to be considered the clear number 2. Or at least be in the same conversation as the other greats. It is an error to just assume he will have a dip. He might get better. Waugh got better, Sangakara got better. Tendulkar had a dip but then had another surge, Lara had a dip and then another surge.
Lara was the undisputed king of scoring huge runs. That he did not have an average over 60 also testifies that there were some lean patches. Smith might have a lean patch. He might be in one right now. But it is all conjecture.

Smith has a bigger challenge in front of him, as compared to the other ATG batsmen, due to his over reliance on hand-eye co-ordination and with age its only going to get tougher. IF he does manage to find another few years of peak performance that's gonna be insane though.

 

[venkyrenga]

Smith vs Sachin can be an interesting discussion when we think about the different factors we have to consider. Plain batting average can be misleading sometimes and that is point of doing these exercises. For the period Ramdas mentioned if we exclude the record against minnows as I have done in this exercise it gives a somewhat different picture.
Sachin has 11869 @ 55.98. And smith has 7162 @ 65.70 for the period I have considered here, 2013-21.

 

[Gob]

Well, he can be if you don't cherry pick the prime period of another player's career to compare it with the first bloke's whole career. After 77 tests (the total Smith has played to date) Tendulkar's average was 6 points less than Smith's. Of course, it was still an awesome number, around 55 or so. We aren't comparing spuds here.

I made this point earlier too. You are basically choosing the best part of a players career and compared it to Smith's whole career which includes his time as a leg spinner. Smith averages around 75 at his peak which should still be 10 runs higher than the peaks of many

 

[TheJediBrah]

Smith has a bigger challenge in front of him, as compared to the other ATG batsmen, due to his over reliance on hand-eye co-ordination and with age its only going to get tougher.

This is a myth that has never made sense. He's not any more reliant on hand-eye coordination than any other batsmen.

 

[Gob]

If a player's whole career is shorter than another ones's peak, there is no issue in comparing whole career and peak.

Lol no. FTR Smith's peak is not sample sized by any means. There should be a 6000 run phase where he averages over 75 and that's not far off from bradman's career aggregate

 

[Gob]

This is a myth that has never made sense. He's not any more reliant on hand-eye coordination than any other batsmen.

In before Overratedsanity chime in with hyper sensitive SS fans

 

[Gob]

Another thing to look at here is the context of players peak. Here are few peak periods from players known for having great peaks and I put a limit on 2000 runs

Tendulkar


Ponting


Sangakkara


Smith


Pretty clear innit

 

[honestbharani]

I really think Smith has already entered ATG levels with his performances so far, even if they taper off from now a la Ponting or Hussey. Whatever he does from now is basically only gonna decide where among the ATGs he lands and not if. And, that by itself, is insane.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Another thing to look at here is the context of players peak. Here are few peak periods from players known for having great peaks and I put a limit on 2000 runs

Tendulkar
View attachment 28461

Ponting
View attachment 28462

Sangakkara
View attachment 28463

Smith
View attachment 28464

Pretty clear innit

Smith's peak is definitely better. Dont think that was the argument.

 

[Teja.]

Another thing to look at here is the context of players peak. Here are few peak periods from players known for having great peaks and I put a limit on 2000 runs

Tendulkar
View attachment 28461

Ponting
View attachment 28462

Sangakkara
View attachment 28463

Smith
View attachment 28464

Pretty clear innit

This is hardly the best sample from Tendulkar's peak. Here's one which I put zero effort into with a 6 run lead over the next batsman with 6000+ runs on a Jan 1 to Dec 31 basis. I'm sure I could get one a bit better if I put in some effort:



This is Viv's 6 year peak where he averaged 10+ runs more than anyone else:



Here's Sobers with a nearly 12 run advantage over everyone else across 11 years and 5500 runs (1958-67):



The point being that while Smith is one of the greatest batsmen ever along with the likes of Tendulkar, Sobers, Viv, Hobbs, Hammond, Headley etc, he is not some never ever seen before freak even in terms of peak batting. Given that, unless Smith goes on for about 50-60 more tests, I'd rather have someone like Tendulkar. Sobers or Hobbs over Smith as they had a 20+ year as an international batsmen while also being much better than anyone else at their peak.

 

[Gob]

This is hardly the best sample from Tendulkar's peak. Here's one which I put zero effort into with a 6 run lead over the next batsman with 6000+ runs on a Jan 1 to Dec 31 basis. I'm sure I could get one a bit better better if I put in some effort:

View attachment 28465

This is Viv's 6 year peak where he averaged 10+ runs more than anyone else:

View attachment 28466

Here's Sobers with a nearly 12 run advantage over everyone else across 11 years and 5500 runs (1958-67):

View attachment 28467

The point being that while Smith is one of the greatest batsmen ever along with the likes of Tendulkar, Sobers, Viv, Hobbs, Hammond, Headley etc. He is not some never ever seen before freak even in terms of peak batting. Given that, unless Smith goes on for about 50-60 more tests, I'd rather have someone like Tendulkar. Sobers or Hobbs over Smith as they had a 20+ year as an international batsmen while also being much better than anyone else at their peak.

Yeah but we are looking at Viv, Sobers and Tendulkar who are the absolute elite in the game and for this exercise, only Tendulkar is eligible. FTR I've never claimed SS is the definite second best but some arguments are hilarious.

For the record, SS is very unique in terms of having and maintaining such a high average after scoring 7000 plus runs. Peaks eliminate players bad bits while I concede that his current record does not include inevitable future slumps, it includes his early lean periods which are well documented and for him to still maintain an average beyond 60 puts him in a unique territory.

How many batsmen have consistently averaged over 60 after scoring say 5k runs? I can't recall anyone in my watching years except Ponting touching the mark for a game. SS has played 24 test matches after passing 5k and maintained a 60 plus average in all but 23 of those games and that's insane. Only Sobers is comparable in that regard from players I can think of but itd be interesting if you find others with similar records especially not so great ATGs if you want to detract from SS. Sutcliffe maybe but can't be bothered to check. Anyway this is the one thing that separates SS from anyone I've seen. I'll have the cumulative averages of GS and SS for references

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Lol no. FTR Smith's peak is not sample sized by any means. There should be a 6000 run phase where he averages over 75 and that's not far off from bradman's career aggregate

Whatever,
If, Player A averages 60 in his 15 year long career
And Player B averages 65 in his 16 year peak and 55 in 20 years overall career
Player B is greater batsman.

 

[Gob]

Whatever,
If, Player A averages 60 in his 15 year long career
And Player B averages 65 in his 16 year peak and 55 in 20 years overall career
Player B is greater batsman.

No

 

[Burgey]

I am speculating, but I think we may already be entering Smith's dip. He hasn't scored mightily since 2019 despite playing on home grounds against the world test champions and runners up.

ftfy

 

[_00_deathscar]

Another thing to look at here is the context of players peak. Here are few peak periods from players known for having great peaks and I put a limit on 2000 runs

Tendulkar
View attachment 28461

Ponting
View attachment 28462

View attachment 28463

Smith
View attachment 28464

Pretty clear innit

Think you’d have to do it by position too because Sachin has a pretty huge lead over Hayden (which is also not fair cos he’s an opener, and played 30 tests less - lots of chance for that to go up or down.

Don’t want to get into THAT not ours argument but Gilchrist averaging that batting where he does (while also playing similarly far few tests) isn’t really a fair comparison.

His closest one is Dravid and he’s comfortably ahead.

The Smith chart is relatively more similar true because they’ve all played a (more) similar amount of tests, and also all bat middle order.

 

[Bolo.]

I made this point earlier too. You are basically choosing the best part of a players career and compared it to Smith's whole career which includes his time as a leg spinner. Smith averages around 75 at his peak which should still be 10 runs higher than the peaks of many

Not sure he ever played as a legspinner, even in his initial stint in the team. Bowled something like 12 overs a match on his first stint in the team. More of a bits and pieces player considering he batted as high as 6, and had matches as the 6th bowler/not bowling at all. From 2013 he was batting 4, and bowling as a part-timer (when he bowled).

His pre-2013 career was only 5 games. He's not a Kallis/Sobers who played a bunch as ARs averaging 30ish. This period also probably favours him in terms of average relative to a bunch of ATG bats. By the age he got a regular spot in the side, many of them have been playing regularly for serval years, typically at a fairly mediocre average.

 

[Gob]

Not sure he ever played as a legspinner, even in his initial stint in the team. Bowled something like 12 overs a match on his first stint in the team. More of a bits and pieces player considering he batted as high as 6, and had matches as the 6th bowler/not bowling at all. From 2013 he was batting 4, and bowling as a part-timer (when he bowled).

His pre-2013 career was only 5 games. He's not a Kallis/Sobers who played a bunch as ARs averaging 30ish. This period also probably favours him in terms of average relative to a bunch of ATG bats. By the age he got a regular spot in the side, many of them have been playing regularly for serval years, typically at a fairly mediocre average.

He was chosen as the front line spinner vs Pakistan at Lords in 2010. He just wasn't very good.

For the second bolded part, he wasn't setting the world on fire upon his second return. He settled his place in the team after Perth test 13/14 ashes but up to that point from the second return included tests in India and England. So 15 tests overall to settle his place.

 

[venkyrenga]

Another important factor we are not considering here is that, 2000s was a very batsman friendly period. You would be surprised to know the difference in the average of batsmen in 00s and 10s. I just did a quick check, it comes to about 12% less in 10s. So unless we adjust the averages to the respective eras direct comparison may be misleading. 90s and 10s seems to be about the same though.

 

[rtramdas]

Well, he can be if you don't cherry pick the prime period of another player's career to compare it with the first bloke's whole career. After 77 tests (the total Smith has played to date) Tendulkar's average was 6 points less than Smith's. Of course, it was still an awesome number, around 55 or so. We aren't comparing spuds here.

but the cherry picked number of runs is (13607-7540)/7540 = 81% more the number of runs of the first player.That is the important factor here. Again every body knows that Sachin unnecessarily carried a bit too far after the 2011 world cup win.Even at that stage he averaged 57 after scoring 14692 runs.