The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[TheJediBrah]

Don't know about McGrath averaginf 18 haha but I've always thought Gilchrist (or his average at least) would have benefited from being in a weaker team. Doubt that will be a popular opinion but for someone who watched virtually his whole career live and how much he threw away his wicket with declaration batting and then stepped up when he was needed, definitely think of he batted say 4 or 5 instead of 7 he'd be averaging 55+.

And yes very aware that by putting a number on it I just did exactly what I've been whinging about. Just throwing out an example that I thought could be the opposite of the trend

 

[TheJediBrah]

Anyway good discussion fellas, as always keeping me interested through work/between sets.

My general conclusion is that when people try to adjust averages basee on whatever factors they often end up with even more misleading conclusions than the bare averages would indicate in the first place, unless its an extreme example like Ryan ten Doeschate

 

[Flem274*]

i think theres just limits on what humans can do. you dont see many bowling averages below 20 or batting averages above 60.

within those ranges theres great variance based on team i.e. colin de grandhomme doesnt average 38 or whatever for zimbabwe because he bats a little higher and has far more responsibility. you see this a bit too when say an asad shafiq gets moved up and flops despite a sound enough technique.

if youre already in andy flowers, ricky pontings, glenn mcgraths or richard hadlees general class though, its harder to go further. its why steve smith is so incredible.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Never got this logic. The whole "would be better in a better team" idea is great and makes sense but it's not going to make that much of a statistical difference, if any.

If you really think that playing in a crap team hurts your stats that much then how good would you have to think Hadlee or Andy Flower were? Or maybe the idea is that only mediocre/middling players are affected and the very best are just as great regardless of what is around them?

Okay I concede 25 is almost definitely too low and I was just pulling numbers from my ass but I think generally a bowler who is in the ~early 30s, who it could be argued averaged around that mark because of a lack of support rather than lack of talent, would benefit more from being part of a great attack than a bowler who is already averaging ~20 (covered later in this thread anyway). It's actually possible his WPM would drop, but he also wouldn't concede as many runs because batsmen have less time to settle in. We have Ishant/Shami/Bumrah/Siraj along with two ATG/ATVG spinners (and Axar/Sundar as back ups). We never had this level of talent, nevermind depth, before - it's relentless for the most part (which also shows in our ridiculous home dominance, which far surpasses anything even when we were previously dominant at home).

Umesh Yadav averages similar to Srinath over his career (albeit different eras) and while he's awesome at home, I don't think if anyone would claim Umesh over Srinath in an Indian ATG XI (if it weirdly came to that particular choice of two).
He's someone who benefits massively from playing as part of a very coherent attack despite the similarity of their overall averages.

Also, it applies far more to bowlers than it does to batsmen where there's certainly more of a 'hunting in packs' thing going on.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Don't know about McGrath averaginf 18 haha but I've always thought Gilchrist (or his average at least) would have benefited from being in a weaker team. Doubt that will be a popular opinion but for someone who watched virtually his whole career live and how much he threw away his wicket with declaration batting and then stepped up when he was needed, definitely think of he batted say 4 or 5 instead of 7 he'd be averaging 55+.

And yes very aware that by putting a number on it I just did exactly what I've been whinging about. Just throwing out an example that I thought could be the opposite of the trend

Yea - it's not a general rule - but you could probably predict it for some players more than others and there are (predictable) exceptions too to that where some would have actually had better career stats in a worse/slightly worse team.

I just reckon Srinath was one of those that was actually a pretty good bowler - not ATG/ATVG or anything like that, but his career averages aren't helped by playing in a far weaker team, at times with awful support (followed by injuries etc). Him in this Indian team would have been tasty, and would also have brought some much needed diversity and flair as far as facial hair goes.

To clarify on that WPM point I made earlier, latter day Ishant averages something in the early 20s but only having a ~3 WPM.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Since it is performances in finals that separates the best from the rest surely the ATG test XI needs 5 or 6 modern-day Kiwi players...

I know Bradman did quite well in meaningless bilateral friendlies, but how would he have coped in a final?

 

[harsh.ag]

It's not only about what you see but what you don't. A certain, but rare, kind of player can get laser focused and ambitious on a personal level when the team around is bad. That's your Sachins and Hadlees. No point changing their numbers. There are others, far bigger in number, who don't do so well when that's the case. A few of those would have gone on to be really good players, not ATGs, but much better than they ended up. This happens less with good teams and more with bad teams. This will happen much less with Indian players going forward, for example, than it happened with Indian players in the 90s. And it's not just about team quality, the level of a country's development, esp in sports, factors into it as well.

 

[trundler]

A good way to look at this is by comparing stats of cricketers whose support cast got better as their career went on. One example off the top of my head is Ashwin in Australia. Had crap stats when the wheel on its course but was gun on the last two tours when he actually had the pacers do their darn job.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Actually Ishant Sharma is a great example. Of course this is a bit basic as it doesn't go too in-depth but this is basically what I think a few of us are trying to get at:

Career
102 tests, 306 wickets @ 32.18

Test features at least Umesh Yadav
26 tests, 75 wickets @ 30.85

Test features at least one of Mohammed Shami or Jasprit Bumrah
33 tests, 118 wickets @ 26.49

Note that his WPM increases by a decent amount but it doesn't suddenly go from like 3 WPM to 4.5 WPM or something when playing with Shami or Bumrah. But his average drops by quite a significant margin.

Now of course, as discussed, he has improved himself as a bowler over the past few years - but do you really think Ishant would still be taking ~3-3.5 WPM @ ~25 regularly if only playing with just Umesh Yadav, rather than with Shami and/or Bumrah?

Interestingly enough, if you add either Ashwin or Jadeja to the mix, his average doesn't change by a significant portion (similar to his average with Umesh Yadav). There's a small benefit but it's limited because the fast bowlers are very much hunting in packs in this case.

But even if you add Ashwin and Jadeja into the mix, his average drops further still to mid-20s from 20-odd matches.

Add in Shami to that above as an 'and' and it drops further still (to just 22.73, albeit from 7 matches only).

Discounting Bumrah from the equation at this point because that attack (Ashwin, Jadeja, Shami, Ishant, Bumrah) has only played one match together - vs New Zealand in the final a few days back.

 

[stephen]

Ishant has simply gotten better as a bowler. I don't think his career proves anything in particular.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ishant has simply gotten better as a bowler. I don't think his career proves anything in particular.

Yeah was just going to say this. Bit of a stretch to say that his improvement is because other the bowlers were better too

 

[Daemon]

Yeah he’s just visibly improved. Possible that the guys around him have contributed slightly, but idk.

I think Lyon is a good example. Off the top of my head when his fast bowling pack is doing meh then he tends to struggle, notwithstanding the recent improvement in his SC game.

 

[honestbharani]

I think the improvement on the bowling average is a very obvious thing when you start playing in a good side with good support around you.

 

[CricAddict]

Yeah was just going to say this. Bit of a stretch to say that his improvement is because other the bowlers were better too

Like HB said, it is very obvious how the average can improve when you have good bowlers around. Don't know why you can't see it TJB. Yes, Ishant has improved from the old but a good bowling line-up will separate the good from the bad.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Like HB said, it is very obvious how the average can improve when you have good bowlers around. Don't know why you can't see it TJB.

I literally said it 3 or 4 times lol. Yes the logic is obvious, and self explanatory. That doesn't mean that it works out in a predictable way in practice.

And as several have already said, Ishant is not a good example because he has clearly improved independent of the rest of the side. Attributing that purely to having a stronger attack around him is doing him a disservice. Daemon's Lyon example is a good one.

 

[Jack1]

I literally said it 3 or 4 times lol. Yes the logic is obvious, and self explanatory. That doesn't mean that it works out in a predictable way in practice.

And as several have already said, Ishant is not a good example because he has clearly improved independent of the rest of the side. Attributing that purely to having a stronger attack around him is doing him a disservice. Daemon's Lyon example is a good one.

Difficult

 

[Gob]

 

[sunilz]

Which bowling attack would you prefer in Asian conditions?

Ashwin, Kumble, Warne, Murali
Or
McGrath, Marshall, Imran , Akram

Assume no over-rate penalty or fine.

 

[Gob]

Which bowling attack would you prefer in Asian conditions?

Ashwin, Kumble, Warne, Murali
Or
McGrath, Marshall, Imran , Akram

Assume no over-rate penalty or fine.

McGrath, Marshall, Imran , Akram easily

I mean to face

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Which bowling attack would you prefer in Asian conditions?

Ashwin, Kumble, Warne, Murali
Or
McGrath, Marshall, Imran , Akram

Assume no over-rate penalty or fine.

Depends what kind of Asian conditions...