***Official*** English Football Season 2020-21

[DriveClub]

Villa going for buendia and JWP ? they've got deep pockets these days

 

[duffer]

Villa going for buendia and JWP ? they've got deep pockets these days

They stole our best keeper last year and our number one target this window.

I'm getting so fomo atm.

 

[sledger]

I think this too looking back. Given how much of defence is about structure rather than individual quality why wouldn’t you just drop in the Arsenal back four? Their defence was definitely better than England’s for most of the 90s. I guess we just didn’t really see football that way.

I think a lot of people still don't tbh. I think a lot of people see real teams like teams you would select on FIFA (i.e., to get the "best" team you pick the best player/player with the best "overall" stat and do that for every position in your formation). Mostly anecdotal (i.e., from overhearing conversations in the pub or whatever), but you occasionally see some pundits speaking in ways that suggest they think similarly.

 

[Uppercut]

Oh yeah definitely. Iceland in 2016 was a good example. People thought they'd be a walkover because they didn't have many "good" players when spending 5 minutes watching them would have been enough to tell that they were actually pretty good. Or even, like, looking at their qualifying and group stage results.

 

[sledger]

Oh yeah definitely. Iceland in 2016 was a good example. People thought they'd be a walkover because they didn't have many "good" players when spending 5 minutes watching them would have been enough to tell that they were actually pretty good. Or even, like, looking at their qualifying and group stage results.

Yeah, it's up there with the "Never heard of this player, therefore they can't be good" trope often trotted out by the Danny Murphys of this world.

I remember in the 2014 WC hearing a debate between Tim Vickery and Chris Waddle where the latter was insisting that Juan Cuadrado was crap because he was a nobody, and Tim being too polite to tell him he was a total ****ing idiot.

Edit: Just assuming that X team will be good/bad in the current WC because they were good/bad in the last one is another one that always gets on my nerves. Assumptions about Brazil being good is always a popular one of course. But all the pundits assuming Algeria were crap in 2010 and that England would roll them over, despite actually being a really handy team, another particularly grim example.

 

[wpdavid]

I actually think that it cuts both ways, and that England have been guilty of getting both of them wrong on occasion. Meaning there have been times when we have been over-deferential to German and Brazilian sides because of who they are. And obviously there have been loads of times when we've done the opposite. Never mind Iceland and Algeria, I though there was some of that against Croatia last time around. It's probably down to England's obsession with class; we know our place and so should everybody else.

 

[Uppercut]

I actually think that it cuts both ways, and that England have been guilty of getting both of them wrong on occasion. Meaning there have been times when we have been over-deferential to German and Brazilian sides because of who they are. And obviously there have been loads of times when we've done the opposite. Never mind Iceland and Algeria, I though there was some of that against Croatia last time around. It's probably down to England's obsession with class; we know our place and so should everybody else.

Yeah I don't think the team underestimated Iceland, but the fans and media absolutely did.

The Croatia game was interesting. At the level where I play there are a lot of games where the faster, more aggressive team dominates the first half, but the more technical team dominates the second half when the game slows down because everyone has less energy. Usually everyone at the top level is fit enough that that doesn't happen, but it happened in that game. Maybe exhaustion becomes more of a factor towards the end of a long tournament, especially if it's hot.

 

[sledger]

Yeah I don't think the team underestimated Iceland, but the fans and media absolutely did.

The Croatia game was interesting. At the level where I play there are a lot of games where the faster, more aggressive team dominates the first half, but the more technical team dominates the second half when the game slows down because everyone has less energy. Usually everyone at the top level is fit enough that that doesn't happen, but it happened in that game. Maybe exhaustion becomes more of a factor towards the end of a long tournament, especially if it's hot.

Haha this happened so many times in Arsenal v Spurs matches during the early-to-mid Wenger era.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Villa going for buendia and JWP ? they've got deep pockets these days

Been a while since I've been particularly excited as a Villa fan, but an attack of Grealish/Buendia/Bertrand Traore behind Watkins is a genuinely exciting prospect. JWP to take the million free kicks that Grealish wins per match would be nice as well.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I did this quiz on the England team v Germany at Euro 96. I got them all and 10 without needing the hints, but without the hint I'd forgotten Steve McManaman.

Euro 2020: Name the England starting line-up against Germany at Euro 96 - BBC Sport

 

[sledger]

Got all of them but needed the hint for Platt.

Edit: Just realised that Platt was only 29 going into the tournament. Thought he was way older than that by that stage. Only one year older than Ince. Same age as Adams and Les Ferdinand. A year younger than Sheringham, 3 years younger than Seaman, and 5 years younger than Pearce. All of whom played for way longer (including internationally).

Edit: Also so weird to think that Ince was still playing for England in 2000.

 

[sledger]

Anyway, I'm pretty surprised more good teams aren't in for JWP, and that it's taken this long for people to really start paying attention to him. He's been really quite good for basically his entire career.

 

[wpdavid]

Got all of them but needed the hint for Platt.

Edit: Just realised that Platt was only 29 going into the tournament. Thought he was way older than that by that stage. Only one year older than Ince. Same age as Adams and Les Ferdinand. A year younger than Sheringham, 3 years younger than Seaman, and 5 years younger than Pearce. All of whom played for way longer (including internationally).

Edit: Also so weird to think that Ince was still playing for England in 2000.

I thought that England got it wrong with Platt once Taylor took over, playing him as a regular midfielder instead of somewhere between midfield and the forward(s), which was where he had his best games under Robson and, occasionally, under Taylor. it was odd, because that's where Taylor played him during his great 1989-90 season with Villa, which put him in England's WC squad. He was never a creative midfielder, but he could finish. I've always liked the clip below from his time on the coaching staff at City. The reaction of a very young Aguero is priceless.

SKILLS David Platt overhead bicycle kick - YouTube

 

[Furball]

Yeah I don't think the team underestimated Iceland, but the fans and media absolutely did.

The Croatia game was interesting. At the level where I play there are a lot of games where the faster, more aggressive team dominates the first half, but the more technical team dominates the second half when the game slows down because everyone has less energy. Usually everyone at the top level is fit enough that that doesn't happen, but it happened in that game. Maybe exhaustion becomes more of a factor towards the end of a long tournament, especially if it's hot.

Basically describes England at finals tournaments. They score a ridiculous percentage of their goals in the first half of games.

 

[weeman27bob]

Basically describes England at finals tournaments. They score a ridiculous percentage of their goals in the first half of games.

I wonder how much of your thoughts on this are influenced by specific tournaments.

Having just crunched the numbers, from Euro 2000 onwards England have scored c.60% of their goals in the first half and c.40% in the second half. But that's mostly because of Euro 2000 & 2002 World Cup where 10 of England's 11 total goals came in the first half. If you take that out it's almost exactly 50/50.

 

[Uppercut]

I think Furball’s narrative is a good one though. I can think of so many examples of England scoring early then gradually losing control of the game. Sweden 2002, Brazil 2002, USA 2010, Portugal and France in 2004, Switzerland 1996, Iceland. How many leads have they lost in major tournaments? That might give a better idea of what he’s talking about.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Going back a bit further we lost the lead (to a last minute equaliser) against West Germany in 66, jibbed a two goal lead against the same oppo in the 70 QF, went from being 1-0 up to 2-1 down v Cameroon in the 90 QF, lost a 1-0 lead to Jerry in the 96 semi, were 2-1 ahead v yer Argies in the 98 2nd round, lost another lead to Columbia in the 18 2nd round thanks to a last minute equaliser and were obviously 1-0 up v Croatia in the semi of the same tournament.

And that's just the knock out games.

 

[GIMH]

Going back a bit further we lost the lead (to a last minute equaliser) against West Germany in 66, jibbed a two goal lead against the same oppo in the 70 QF, went from being 1-0 up to 2-1 down v Cameroon in the 90 QF, lost a 1-0 lead to Jerry in the 96 semi, were 2-1 ahead v yer Argies in the 98 2nd round, lost another lead to Columbia in the 18 2nd round thanks to a last minute equaliser and were obviously 1-0 up v Croatia in the semi of the same tournament.

And that's just the knock out games.

Came back to win a couple of those though.

And Portugal in 04 I think we went 2-1 down in ET? Would have been a silver goal without the quick equaliser unless I drank too much that night and have made it up?

 

[weeman27bob]

I think Furball’s narrative is a good one though. I can think of so many examples of England scoring early then gradually losing control of the game. Sweden 2002, Brazil 2002, USA 2010, Portugal and France in 2004, Switzerland 1996, Iceland. How many leads have they lost in major tournaments? That might give a better idea of what he’s talking about.

Yeah it wasn't so much a "gotcha" just that I thought it was interesting looking at the numbers how Euro 2000/2002 World Cup was basically all first half goals.

Definitely true that there's a lot of bigger games in the list where England took an early lead and lost it though.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Came back to win a couple of those though.

And Portugal in 04 I think we went 2-1 down in ET? Would have been a silver goal without the quick equaliser unless I drank too much that night and have made it up?

Can't honestly remember about the silver goal, but we definitely came back from 2-1 down, yeah.

Did Sol have another goal disallowed too? I know he did v Argentina in 98 (we were still jumping around the pub when we realised the Argies had taken a quick free kick and were threatening our goal), but I have a recollection v Portugal too.