What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests?

[Gob]

I meant recently. I'm not saying rank turners don't ever make an appearance but slow, low roads are the norm.

I've been watching cricket in India here and there but mostly keeping in touch on cricinfo. In the last series against England, there was a slow low road for the first test which was followed by 3 turners right? Or at least two in memory

Anyway I did looked at some numbers. From the beginning of 2007 to the start of 2012 (year Jadeja debuted), an average per wicket in test matches played in India was 41.25. For the preceding five years, the period when Jadeja allegedly played most of his cricket at home, its 32.26

It's a huge difference which could have been influenced by many factors such as India losing their famed batting line up (all though it was replaced by more than useful one) but the quality of the wickets must be a huge factor for that and that's what it was from what I remember.

Average scores can be reduced when wickets aid spin or pace and the wickets un India do not aid pace so it has to be spin.

 

[srbhkshk]

They only rolled out rank turners once?

You are kidding me right I remember a whole series of sub par wickets against SA two or three years back when only AB DeVilliers looked like he could bat on them and several other similar serieses where people going ape **** about quality of wickets in India (not all the whinging was justifiable)

Any way need to check that

That was in 2015...

 

[_00_deathscar]

I've been watching cricket in India here and there but mostly keeping in touch on cricinfo. In the last series against England, there was a slow low road for the first test which was followed by 3 turners right? Or at least two in memory

Anyway I did looked at some numbers. From the beginning of 2007 to the start of 2012 (year Jadeja debuted), an average per wicket in test matches played in India was 41.25. For the preceding five years, the period when Jadeja allegedly played most of his cricket at home, its 32.26

It's a huge difference which could have been influenced by many factors such as India losing their famed batting line up (all though it was replaced by more than useful one) but the quality of the wickets must be a huge factor for that and that's what it was from what I remember.

Average scores can be reduced when wickets aid spin or pace and the wickets un India do not aid pace so it has to be spin.

How is it also not influenced by Jadeja and Ashwin playing together though?

 

[Gob]

My all time attack be Marshall-McGrath-Steyn-Warne ftr and I'm not one for prioritising batting depth but if you do then Jadeja is a prime pick.

Don't you think picking Jadeja as the lead spinner over Warne or Murali result in an considerable drop in quality in the spin department and the additional batting that he brings to the table compensate for the said drop in quality

That is ofcourse if there is a drop in quality

 

[trundler]

Also 32 would have to be pretty close to the global average for that time frame too. The fact that it was over 40(!) in the late 00s is the anomaly there. Reckon something similar but less extreme has happened in Australia since 2017ish too.

 

[Gob]

How is it also not influenced by Jadeja and Ashwin playing together though?

Could be but Kumble and Harbhajan aren't too shabby now are they. I'd say equally good

 

[srbhkshk]

Could be but Kumble and Harbhajan aren't too shabby now are they. I'd say equally good

Kumble and Bhajji didn't have the type of support Ashwin and Jadeja have + except for some time Harbhajan was just bad.

 

[Shri]

Average scores can be reduced when wickets aid spin or pace and the wickets un India do not aid pace so it has to be spin.

 

[Gob]

Also 32 would have to be pretty close to the global average for that time frame too. The fact that it was over 40(!) in the late 00s is the anomaly there. Reckon something similar but less extreme has happened in Australia since 2017ish too.

I think the global average is irrelevant here.

Broke down the stats further and looking only at the performances of the visiting batsmen now

2012-2017 - 26.10
2007-2012 - 35.96
2002-2007 - 32.82

There is a pretty big difference. Part of that can be down to inferior batting lineups, superior bowling but equally big part has to be down to the quality of the pitches. Harbhajan and Kumble rolled an ATG Aust batting lineup for 94 on a turning pitch so they were clearly very capable of exploiting such conditions but maybe such conditions weren't presented to them as often as they are to Ashwin and Jadeja. My opinion obviously

 

[KINGOFKINGS]

KoK's theories about players pre '60s fail to impress. Whenever players from different eras are discussed, in any sports, it is customary to acknowledge the cream of each era. If we were to take his theories/opinions into account and apply them to any sport, the likes of Jesse Owens, Herb Elliott, Joe Louis and Juan Fangio would be consigned to the ranks of also-rans. When looking at these champions of yesteryear, we need to consider how they would perform given modern training, sophisticated equipment and financial rewards that are available today.

I too like the theory of adjusting for inflation but then we should be sure whoever we are adjusting for inflation is worthy. The farther we go it becomes more and more difficult to adjust for inflation.

Taking example from other sports (Tennis).

GOAT of the 90s Pete Sampras did not have a baseline game to survive in the modern era vs Djokovic/Nadal/Federer but we can maybe give him some benefit of the doubt because of his great serve and athletic displays in the 90s that if born 15 years later then he could be as lethal as these guys, but this cannot be applied to the GOAT of the 1960s Rod Laver because he was just 5'7 and we know for a fact that now guys short have no chance in beating the modern day guys, the game has just evolved.

Same for clay, someone like Bjorn Born is a bonafide legend on clay (6 French Open) but we know that if he is sent to the modern era then he would struggle vs Rafael Nadal who is 2 inches taller to him, so the Nadal forehand which troubled Federer would trouble Borg even more, but someone like Gustavo Kuerten (3 French Opens) with his 6 foot 4 inches tall frame would tackle the Nadal forehand a lot easier like Robin Soderling did, perhaps Gustavo would adjust to a double handed backhand in the modern era and wuld be even more dangerous, the height is a real thing.

So you see, even while adjusting for inflation we have to only promote the right guys, everyone who is great in the prev eras won't be great even now.

F1 ? I don't know about Fangio but I am sure Aryton Senna/Mika Hakinnen/Michael Schumacher would all beat Lewis Hamilton.

Same applies for others sports too, in Athletics, we know Carl Lewis/Michael Johnson type guys if born in the modern era would challenge Bolt, but we cannot give the athletes of the 50s and 60s the same benefit of doubt.

 

[KINGOFKINGS]

Among the pre 90s guys I am sure guys like Lillee / Sobers / Marshall / Graeme Pollock / Joel Garner / Holding / Roberts type guys have the speed/height/Built/Skills etc etc to adapt to the modern era but when you go back to the 20s or 30s then those guys did not have the physical frames or skills or the exposure to do the job, even tall guys back in those times were awkward and not as athletic as the tall guys now are.....

Bradman gets picked because of his numbers and insane talent, 100 avg is like twice of his peers that suggests he would still be far ahead of everyone else logically, so that matters

 

[Gob]

View attachment 27963

Equally good no? I put a limit on 10 wickets

What you can look in to is how well Indian fast bowlers have performed which goes both ways

 

[trundler]

I think the global average is irrelevant here.

Broke down the stats further and looking only at the performances of the visiting batsmen now

2012-2017 - 26.10
2007-2012 - 35.96
2002-2007 - 32.82

There is a pretty big difference. Part of that can be down to inferior batting lineups, superior bowling but equally big part has to be down to the quality of the pitches. Harbhajan and Kumble rolled an ATG Aust batting lineup for 94 on a turning pitch so they were clearly very capable of exploiting such conditions but maybe such conditions weren't presented to them as often as they are to Ashwin and Jadeja. My opinion obviously

It absolutely is relevant. There's a marked difference between Indian pitches being helpful for spinners and them being rank turners where bowling spin is a lottery. I don't disagree with Kumble and Harbhajan having to have bowled on terribad pitches but batting has generally been more difficult across the globe in the last 10ish years. A bowling average of 32 doesn't stand out at all and certainly doesn't give me the impression of extreme bowling friendliness.

 

[Gob]

didn't you have chris harris in your odi atg xi

I picked him sarcastically

 

[Gob]

It absolutely is relevant. There's a marked difference between Indian pitches being helpful for spinners and them being rank turners where bowling spin is a lottery. I don't disagree with Kumble and Harbhajan having to have bowled on terribad pitches but batting has generally been more difficult across the globe in the last 10ish years. A bowling average of 32 doesn't stand out at all and certainly doesn't give me the impression of extreme bowling friendliness.

Its 26 for the visiting teams not 32

 

[trundler]

That just means they suck. T20 era batsmen can't cope with sideways movement.

NZ regularly sees visiting teams limply tumble over on roads too and it's no surprise those are the two most dominant teams at home these days. Check out the scorecards for when SA or WI last toured India. I watched those series and there weren't even leftover ghosts of any demons in the pitches. Davey Warner struggling to get off the mark while Joe Root makes tons for fun tells us what we already know.

 

[Gob]

You can say that again

 

[trundler]

Also last year or the year before that was the first time ever India's pacers had a better home average for the year than the spinners. So the fact that India currently has its best ever all round attack (by a country mile), a batting lineup that isn't a patch on the Fab 4 + Sehwag/Gambhir all contribute to lowering that average. Pitches in India have been way more balanced recently but no they're not all rank turners. Has something for the spinners ≠ rank turner. Cook dominated in India while Elgar and Warner sucked ass. Not exactly surprising is it.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Grace
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist
Woakes
Imran
Marshall
O'Reilly

 

[ataraxia]

I've been watching cricket in India here and there but mostly keeping in touch on cricinfo. In the last series against England, there was a slow low road for the first test which was followed by 3 turners right? Or at least two in memory

Yeah. And Jaddu didn't play.

Anyhow Aubrey Faulkner IMO.