2020/21 New Zealand Domestic Season

[Bahnz]

Bro, you see the turn this kid is getting? Should be in the test team yesterday.

Oh dear, I think the ICC will be interested in the amount of bending and straightening in that elbow.

 

[SteveNZ]

I'm with Bah - it's absolutely preferable for guys to spend time working out their games before they are exposed to the top level. The back-ups to our best XI in both Tests and ODI are strong without having the absolute need to blood anyone now. Let those three Wellingtonians dominate for a couple of years, gain the confidence of being bonafide first class consistent performers and know their games a lot more before they make the step up. Allen and Sears in particular should be a fair way away, and I imagine they are.

 

[nzfan]

To be honest as much as I back the youth at the end of the day here's my wishlist for the year:

1. Win the world cup, doesn't matter which one. I'll take the T20 one for now
2. Draw or win the test series vs India (asking for heaps but it's a wish list). Don't mind if we lose to England and even lost the WTC finals.
3. Blow away Aussies 5 zip in T20s

If they do it with 50 year olds or 15 year olds I don't care... If they do one of 1 or 2 I'll be happy as well. I think they need some youth with x factor to be able to do that, you think you need experience to do that. Only time will tell what's the better approach I suppose.

 

[Bahnz]

The three players I picked out all have lots to offer.

Gill and Pant play in India on decks where Ravindra Jadeja has few triple hundys I think. Not a fair comparison. Our decks first half of the season is horrendous for the batters. It's a huge hit and miss. Even Gill couldn't buy a run here. I think Ravindra may be averaging maybe lots more for NZ A than firebirds for obvious reason.

I think Ravindra must have played no more than dozen one day games and out of which he probably batted in like 6 games. I can't even remember him playing ford trophy, maybe he has played a couple at best? Rest of them batting at 10 or 11 or lower order for some reason for NZ A.. not exactly sure but I saw him batting at no. 11 for NZ A Which country does that, taking an opening batter and batting him at no.11 after Tickener? Coaching staff must have been drunk I thought. Wasn't he the top scorer for NZ A in UAE vs Pak A? Is that correct? Ravindra has won games with the ball too don't forget, a left arm spinner and bats at the top of the order. A sure shot for sub continent conditions. Don't just look at his batting, he has won games with the ball even at NZ A level in white ball and red ball cricket. Guys like him don't turn up every day. I don't think he should be drafted in now but keep him in mind for the squad when BCs tour sub continent but I know Santner will be ahead and so will Ajaz, Will Somerville, McConchie... It's not disrespect to those guys they're quite good too but we'll be wasting a good opportunity to win a game or two in case he comes good.

Ben Sears is right behind Lockie as for pace is concerned in NZ. Yes a bit short on experience but if he has enough experience guys around him he'll come good and maybe can win a game overseas. Come on give him a go at some one dayer vs Bangladesh.

Finn Allen for now cannot be argued against. Every time he holds a bat at the other end holding the ball is the best bowler of the opponent. He has taken each one of them to cleaners and hasn't demonstrated any weakness to any particular plan meaning he's not being lucky here but is ahead of the game. I was convinced he should be picked against Bangladesh but now I'm convinced pick him against the Aussies. Nothing to lose...

I'd be backing Clarkson too if he's bowling consistently... I'll get on to his case later haha Anyways what I think doesn't matter but like I said I'm not getting a good vibe about our squads that are likely going to be picked to perform overseas. Only time can tell.

Ravindra averages over 70 with the ball in FC cricket and nearly 60 in List A's (he's played a dozen of them to date). I mean, yeah he picked up some wickets against a truly feeble WI A side, but he's a handy part timer at best, Michael Bracewell probably has higher credentials with the ball at this point. And hell, Ajaz and Sommerville have taken hundreds of first class wickets between them and have actually played matchwinning hands in tests for New Zealand, to call them "quite good" in one breath and Rachin a matchwinner in another: I don't want to seem rude, but it's bordering on ridiculous.

And the horrible domestic pitches that you mentioned haven't stopped guys like Conway, McClure, Young and Latham from averaging 50+ this season. Rachin hit a poor run of form, and played some really poor shots during the October-leg of the Plunket Shield. There's not much more to it than that. Performances in A cricket definitely matter, especially when made on tour, but Rachin scoring a 70 in the UAE on a pitch where Neil Wagner helped himself to a FC 50 isn't terribly persuasive for me either.

Sears is quick, and as mentioned I would give him a crack in the T20's this summer. But once Lockie's back I don't see a place for him (especially on the sub-continent, where slightly wild fast bowlers historically haven't had the best of times).

As for Allen: I'm really happy for him that he's been finally able to achieve some results after pretty much non-stop failure during his first 2 seasons of domestic cricket. But there's Seifert, Phillips, Munro, Worker and yes Guptill (poor form or not still NZ's greatest ever LO opener) all queueing up for top order spots. And as for the bolded, I remember once upon a time a young Ross Taylor piling on mountains of runs in his debut season for CD in List A's. Next year, bowlers having had a bit more of a look at him, came back with some plans and low and behold he struggled. Saying he hasn't demonstrated any weaknesses when opposition bowlers have only had a few weeks to respond to Allen not shitting the bed every time he's at the crease is massively massively premature.

So yeah in sum: Rachin - no way, Allen - more is needed, and Sears - maybe but even then it's early days. And look if NZ don't play well in the sub-continent later this year, and these guys (and others like them) continue performing then yes it'll be time to give them a run. But in a home season where NZ has won 9 games out of 10 (often playing significantly under-strength lineups due to covid and player management related reasons) there's just no urgent reason for these guys being picked.

 

[nzfan]

You know I can't win an argument if I put a stat out you'll knock it off with something else. It's never ending.

I see ability, talent, confidence and you see numbers. Two different things.

You think these guys aren't good enough yet and I think these guys are ready for the next level purely by watching the way they've gone so far. I believe numbers are not the only thing to look at and you reckon selections should be based on numbers.

It's contradicting from me but honestly who cares, I'm liking the fact black caps are dominating. If they continue to do so I wouldn't care if the above three don't get a single game for BCs. IMO if the management makes some courageous decisions we may be on to something special in the coming years.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

The only players I want in the team are the ones I liked before any of you had heard of them before.

 

[Bahnz]

You know I can't win an argument if I put a stat out you'll knock it off with something else. It's never ending.

I see ability, talent, confidence and you see numbers. Two different things.

You think these guys aren't good enough yet and I think these guys are ready for the next level purely by watching the way they've gone so far. I believe numbers are not the only thing to look at and you reckon selections should be based on numbers.

It's contradicting from me but honestly who cares, I'm liking the fact black caps are dominating. If they continue to do so I wouldn't care if the above three don't get a single game for BCs. IMO if the management makes some courageous decisions we may be on to something special in the coming years.

I am not basing my opinion purely on numbers, and I do not think that numbers are all that selections should be based on, but they do matter. Numbers aren't everything, but they are an important check against confirmation bias.

I've watched plenty of all three players this season. I've seen Allen playing and missing ball after ball before having his agony ended with a terrible shot. I've seen Rachin get a long hop on leg-stump late in the day and hoick it straight to square leg. I've seen Ben Sears bowl a ball so wide it would've been a wide the next pitch over. And yes, I've seen all three enjoy success as well.

In either case this isn't really about the performances being put up by these guys, but as I've already said many times, the performances of the guys in the team in front of them, which as noted have been extremely good. Hell, Jacob Duffy and Mark Chapman probably have more right to demand another go in internationals then any of the players we've discussed tonight on the back of their performances for NZ this season.

 

[SteveNZ]

You know I can't win an argument if I put a stat out you'll knock it off with something else. It's never ending.

I see ability, talent, confidence and you see numbers. Two different things.

You think these guys aren't good enough yet and I think these guys are ready for the next level purely by watching the way they've gone so far. I believe numbers are not the only thing to look at and you reckon selections should be based on numbers.

It's contradicting from me but honestly who cares, I'm liking the fact black caps are dominating. If they continue to do so I wouldn't care if the above three don't get a single game for BCs. IMO if the management makes some courageous decisions we may be on to something special in the coming years.

I think the thing for me is we don't need to blood any of those guys yet. The back-ups we have in both ODI and Test cricket are absolutely more than adequate. The only exception you could probably make is as Test opening bat, and Rachin hasn't exactly beaten the door down for that spot - and in any case, the NZ A selectors made a point of batting him in the middle order in a move that most of us saw as a precursor to him being considered for the spot that Santner currently has a tenuous hold on.

We can, and it's a luxury, allow those three guys more time to become bonafide FC consistent performers (none of them are yet) and to work out their games further, play A cricket in the case of Allen and Sears, and especially with Allen, face the reality that in future teams are going to formulate more considered plans for him and it'll be up to him to respond and tailor his game to that situation.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Definitely think it’s worth giving Allen and Sears a t20 run vs Bangladesh ... they aren’t going to break into the side for the World Cup, but you couldn’t get a more favourable series for a debut, it’ll give them an end of season taster and some incentive to train hard over the off-season. They’re in form and performing, so I think they deserve it. It’s happened with plenty of players before, why not these two?

Ravindra I don’t think has performed well enough domestically to be in Blackcaps conversations yet, tbh, injury aside.

 

[SteveNZ]

Definitely think it’s worth giving Allen and Sears a t20 run vs Bangladesh ... they aren’t going to break into the side for the World Cup, but you couldn’t get a more favourable series for a debut, it’ll give them an end of season taster and some incentive to train hard over the off-season. They’re in form and performing, so I think they deserve it. It’s happened with plenty of players before, why not these two?

Ravindra I don’t think has performed well enough domestically to be in Blackcaps conversations yet, tbh, injury aside.

But who do you not pick for Bangladesh? Kane, OK, but Gup, Seifert, Conway, Phillips, Neesham, Mitchell etc, those guys all need more international miles for different reasons. I don't see a spot for a guy who's stormed onto the scene but previous to that was flat out getting a domestic XI spot.

Those guys' time will come. Let them prove this summer's efforts are repeatable.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Is Mitchell in the frame for T20s?

 

[Immenso]

I wouldn't even bother working out our XI for now. The BC management doesn't have the courage or acumen to recognize talent early and give them a go in at least some jam games. Why do I feel we will fall back on 30 to mid 30s players for the next few years till the wheels come off and then go oh we ****ed up let's start rebuilding again but then it'll be a tiny bit late and the super talented players of now by then will be like today's Rutherfords, Doug Bracewells, Ajaz Patels I think the sub continent teams would have done wonders with our younger lot. It's almost like if you are young you are up against it. It should be an advantage ideally but in NZ it's a disadvantage.

The last time the BCs selected a T20 squad, Finn Allen had done zero, zilch. Sears had 2 good T20 performances in his short career (even they were 2 seasons old, I think).

Now. Both have put up some good consistent performances. And ..... there are gaps in both their positions. (Guptill and Ferguson).

They'll probably get picked.

They'll have earnt it.

That is good selecting.

Throwing teenagers scattergun at international cricket , before theyve come close to earning it and while they have quality fit incumbents, would not be good selecting.

 

[nzfan]

IMO forget the numbers... I can throw enough numbers about the current black caps players but it's a useless exercise as you can see. Jamieson's 60 or 70+ bowling average for NZ A after elevating to NZ A, Santner not grabbing a single 5 fer in first class before playing for black caps, I don't think Darryl Mitchell has better numbers than Ravindra does for NZ A with the bat at least. Did Nicholls have a 100 before playing for NZ A? I'm not entirely sure. I think he may have been averaging like early 30s with maybe no 100s or 1 hundred before being picked to play for NZ A which turned out to be an amazing series for him. Thank god Black Caps selection wasn't purely based on numbers and these were rightly backed.

If you can play Darryl Mitchell at no.7 in NZ why wouldn't you play Ravindra in his place in sub continent conditions at no.7? Off the head last looked Ravindra was averaging like mid 40s for NZ A.

We can go on and on and on but numbers don't tell the entire story. They are utter useless and can be twisted and turned to favour the argument.

Personally I'd hope it pans out like this:

Finn Allen to debut in T20s sooner than later, build him up for the T20 WC and open with him. A good shock factor if he approaches the batting the way he is right now even at international level.

Take Ben Sears to UK and if Lockie isn't available play him. We need our own Jofra Archer and with duke balls he'll be unplayable if he gets it right. He's quite tall too and read he's spent couple of seasons in UK for cricket.

Take Ravindra to sub continent and play him at no.6 or no.7 and get him to bowl heaps. He gets unbelievable bounce, probably a tall dude as well , puts lots of revs on the ball and will turn sharp no doubt. Will definitely do plenty on those surfaces. Batting will be absolute bonus or the bowling whichever way you put it. Again from what I have read he's been on Indian tours heaps?

I believe if we need extraordinary results we need extraordinary measures.

 

[jcas0167]

Is Mitchell in the frame for T20s?

You would think so, he was in the side for the Windies series. Since then he has been in good form for Canterbury and obviously batted well in the tests. I think they like his temperament and power game. Plays the short ball well too. Not sure de Grandhomme has done enough to slot back in yet.

 

[SteveNZ]

I believe if we need extraordinary results we need extraordinary measures.

Do we? We're #1 Test side in the world and basically won a World Cup. I think we need to keep doing exactly what we're doing - picking consistently, rewarding performance with re-selection even through tough times (see H.Nicholls) and slotting in guys when they have done the time in first class cricket. Has there been a Hail Mary under Kane's leadership? I don't remember many.

 

[nzfan]

Do we? We're #1 Test side in the world and basically won a World Cup. I think we need to keep doing exactly what we're doing - picking consistently, rewarding performance with re-selection even through tough times (see H.Nicholls) and slotting in guys when they have done the time in first class cricket. Has there been a Hail Mary under Kane's leadership? I don't remember many.

Like I said above not whole sale changes, I'm not for whole sale changes, I'm not out of mind. Can't complain about the results at all... The best we've had in all formats but do make some minor changes and build the bench strength. Don't want to see another Aussie like series struck with the same formula.

 

[Bahnz]

IMO forget the numbers... I can throw enough numbers about the current black caps players but it's a useless exercise as you can see. Jamieson's 60 or 70+ bowling average for NZ A after elevating to NZ A, Santner not grabbing a single 5 fer in first class before playing for black caps, I don't think Darryl Mitchell has better numbers than Ravindra does for NZ A with the bat at least. Did Nicholls have a 100 before playing for NZ A? I'm not entirely sure. I think he may have been averaging like early 30s with maybe no 100s or 1 hundred before being picked to play for NZ A which turned out to be an amazing series for him. Thank god Black Caps selection wasn't purely based on numbers and these were rightly backed.

If you can play Darryl Mitchell at no.7 in NZ why wouldn't you play Ravindra in his place in sub continent conditions at no.7? Off the head last looked Ravindra was averaging like mid 40s for NZ A.

We can go on and on and on but numbers don't tell the entire story. They are utter useless and can be twisted and turned to favour the argument.

Not a fan of Moneyball I see.

Just briefly in response to your queries in this post:

Jamieson did indeed struggle in his first run in the NZA side - a sign that he wasn't yet ready for internationals, something that he himself now freely admits. In his last NZA series before international selection though he took 6 wickets at 29 against India A.
Santner has indeed never taken a 5fer in first class cricket, which is why it probably shouldn't be surprising that he's never looked remotely likely to take a 5 wicket bag in tests, and has generally looked like a waste of a place. If anything he represents a cautionary tale against picking someone like Ravindra
Re Henry Nicholls, I'm not sure why whether him scoring an FC hundred before playing for NZA is relevant to the point at hand. Whether he did or he didn't, he still started putting consistent performances on the board for Canterbury and NZA in the seasons (emphasis on plural) running up to his international debut. Being picked to NZA is very different to being picked for NZ. It is absolutely intended to be a development engine for the national side, and so taking a punt on promising players (regardless of their success in domestix) makes sense. The same doesn't automatically hold for a national callup.
Not 100% opposed to the idea of Ravindra making his debut in India, but he'd need to start averaging a hell of a lot more than 11 in this season's Plunket Shield to justify it.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

But who do you not pick for Bangladesh? Kane, OK, but Gup, Seifert, Conway, Phillips, Neesham, Mitchell etc, those guys all need more international miles for different reasons. I don't see a spot for a guy who's stormed onto the scene but previous to that was flat out getting a domestic XI spot.

Those guys' time will come. Let them prove this summer's efforts are repeatable.

What’s another 3 t20s vs Bangers going to tell us about Guptill that we don’t already know? I’d say it would actually be worth investing in Allen in case Guptill’s abysmal form continues in the World Cup as well, lest we end up with another Munro situation, totally out of form with no back up plan ... but I don’t know how fair it is to send Allen straight onto that stage in foreign conditions. Not very I guess.

 

[thundaboult]

finn allen needs to play purely off the fact that he's a fkn chad

 

[Bahnz]

What’s another 3 t20s vs Bangers going to tell us about Guptill that we don’t already know? I’d say it would actually be worth investing in Allen in case Guptill’s abysmal form continues in the World Cup as well, lest we end up with another Munro situation, totally out of form with no back up plan ... but I don’t know how fair it is to send Allen straight onto that stage in foreign conditions. Not very I guess.

The games v Bangladesh are ODI's not t20's.