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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You had two points Dan. Your first is that list of bowlers. The first set were bowlers who were the fourth best bowlers in the team. A 30 average for the 4th bowler is neither here nor there really. A fourth bowler isn't going to take many wickets from your most important bowlers. I don't think you'd find Australia would have done very well if any of those guys were the second pick bowlers. I'm fact I do remember a couple of tests where they were - the 2005 Ashes where Warne was the only decent bowler and Australia were fielding Kasper, Lee and a way past it Gillespie add the pacers. Warne took 8 wpm that series. Those guys took virtually nothing.

The next guys are associated with extended periods of mediocrity in Australian cricket. The period with Hilfenhaus/Johnson/Siddle as our attack was the worst since the 80s. And much as I love McDermott, Hughes and Warne were just as important in the early 90s.

Your second point was about Morkel. I watched plenty of Morkel. For most of the time he was like a worse version of Gillespie. Always looked good because he always bowled too short and didn't take the edge. Morkel did well to improve in the last few years of his career - the years Steyn largely spent injured. I mean he only got his career average under 30 at the end of 2014, some 70 odd tests into Steyn's career.

Steyn was that good that he made South Africa's attack fearsome and match winning in spite of Kallis being the second or third best bowler for a number of years. Philander coming along was massive for the overall quality of the SA attack and really improved their overall effectiveness when he was present.

This was probably the weakest period for the SA attack if you don't count Steyn:

 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The kind of cringey one eyed posts with context less stats plucked to prove a biased view is a new low, even for tjb and stephen.

And regarding the back and across, the thing with Smith is that he seems to exaggerate almost all of the movements, none of which are as unorthodox as they may seem but he does it so rapidly, its almost as if he is giving himself the very last millisecond to get into position coz that is the speed at which is mind and body get in sync.
 

ImpatientLime

International Regular
where does eoin morgan rank in the rather limited pantheon of english white ball bats?

the only dead certs above him imo are buttler and root.
 

Magrat Garlick

Rather Mad Witch
where does eoin morgan rank in the rather limited pantheon of english white ball bats?

the only dead certs above him imo are buttler and root.
older hands argue for Nick Knight and Neil Fairbrother, as I recall. But that might be because they're purely white ball players

edit: are we allowed to discuss ODI ATGs here? or was this a test thread?
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Nick Knight was good

I'm not sure exactly when it changed, but it's hard to judge the guys who played ODIs pre 1995ish to the modern guys
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The kind of cringey one eyed posts with context less stats plucked to prove a biased view is a new low, even for tjb and stephen.
I'm just reporting this **** from now on. You're getting worse.

What did I say that could possibly be considered "plucking stats" or a "biased view"? Stop lumping me in with stephen every time he does this. Especially when you yourself are doing exactly that. And stop talking about me as if I'm not here.
 
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stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm just reporting this **** from now on. You're getting worse.

What did I say that could possibly be considered "plucking stats" or a "biased view"? Stop lumping me in with stephen every time he does this. Especially when you yourself are doing exactly that. And stop talking about me as if I'm not here.
When I do what?
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I'm just reporting this **** from now on. You're getting worse.

What did I say that could possibly be considered "plucking stats" or a "biased view"? Stop lumping me in with stephen every time he does this. Especially when you yourself are doing exactly that. And stop talking about me as if I'm not here.

....





And FWIW, Warney getting slapped around for 2 tests in BD is extremely relevant as Murali also had only 4 tests in BD and somehow that is minnow bashing? Warne got tailenders out after being smoked by the batsmen, btw...

And Murali dominated England even more than Warne and they were absolute minnows in playing spin even compared to 00s Bangladesh in the 90s, so of course it is you cherry picking stats to suit your biased view. And yeah, sorry I did not mention the straight up lies on Murali's action.

And lol @ you lecturing anyone about posting as if they are not there... :laugh:
 
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TheJediBrah

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....
And FWIW, Warney getting slapped around for 2 tests in BD is extremely relevant as Murali also had only 4 tests in BD and somehow that is minnow bashing? Warne got tailenders out after being smoked by the batsmen, btw, and it is only two tests less than Murali in BD who is somehow accused of filling his boots against minnows.

And Murali dominated England even more than Warne and they were absolute minnows in playing spin even compared to 00s Bangladesh in the 90s, so of course it is you cherry picking stats to suit your biased view.

And lol @ you lecturing anyone about posting as if they are not there... :laugh:
Don't know why you insist on bringing Warne into the discussion (well I do, but let's not go there). But this all so, so wrong. I have not cherry picked any stats, and I don't even have a view to suit, let alone be biased. I've made no comment or even stated an opinion either way so your
assertion that I'm trying to "suit a biased view" is utter trash.

All I've done is corrected your cherry-picked stats. Literally said all this yesterday but I can go again if you want:
- Warne played 3 Tests, total, against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Murali played 25. One of those is statistically significant.
- Murali averaged over 20 against England, and 15 against Ban & Zim. He clearly would not have been better off playing more against England instead.

And to reiterate, I am making no judgment re. the comparison between Warne and Murali that you insisted on turning the discussion into. I am not saying that I think Warne is superior in any way. I was just pointing out you clearly erroneous arguments.

You continually accusing anyone who corrects you on anything of being biased has gotten beyond old.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
And to reiterate, I am making no judgment re. the comparison between Warne and Murali that you insisted on turning the discussion into.
And another obvious example of the bias. When did "I" turn this discussion into Warne Vs Murali when it was obvious it was you and @stephen's biased takes that got us here? I understand you hate being called out on being wrong but then try to not be wrong, and biased.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
All I've done is corrected your cherry-picked stats. Literally said all this yesterday but I can go again if you want:
- Warne played 3 Tests, total, against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Murali played 25. One of those is statistically significant.
- Murali averaged over 20 against England, and 15 against Ban & Zim. He clearly would not have been better off playing more against England instead.
- Missing the point, not answering what I pointed out, obvious biased drivel as usual.
- I never said he would have been better off playing more against England over BD/Zim. Care to point out where I ever said anything to that effect? Again more examples of the obvious biased drivel but this time it is a bias against me... :laugh:
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
...


Yeah, no bias here... :laugh: 8-)

Its great you accuse me of everything that is obvious in your posts. I mean, I would call out the obvious hypocrisy but then what else have you got to post here?
That's a post from over a month ago. Enough said.
And another obvious example of the bias. When did "I" turn this discussion into Warne Vs Murali when it was obvious it was you and @stephen's biased takes that got us here? I understand you hate being called out on being wrong but then try to not be wrong, and biased.
From what I can tell it wasn't Stephen who brought up Warne. And it definitely wasn't me. So that would be another "no"
- Missing the point, not answering what I pointed out, obvious biased drivel as usual.
- I never said he would have been better off playing more against England over BD/Zim. Care to point out where I ever said anything to that effect? Again more examples of the obvious biased drivel but this time it is a bias against me... :laugh:
jfc please just stop it
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
And another obvious example of the bias. When did "I" turn this discussion into Warne Vs Murali when it was obvious it was you and @stephen's biased takes that got us here? I understand you hate being called out on being wrong but then try to not be wrong, and biased.
It was ankitj who tried to kick off a Warne vs Murali debate. You've been trying to further it.

Unless using Murali as an example of someone with a high wpm value is considered kicking off a Warne vs Murali debate, which is the one thing I did do. I could be factually incorrect about that though if taking 6 wpm over 133 tests is no longer considered high because this is 2020 and we're all now living in bizzaro world.

Honestly, your posting and that of Ankitj just go to show that neither of you were even attempting to engage points I was actually making and instead were just attempting to attack a caricature of me that you've built up in your mind.

I mean even though I disagree with Harsh.ag and Dan's takes on the state of the South African bowling attack in the first half of Steyn's career, they were at least engaging the points I was actually raising.
 

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