Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

[h_hurricane]

That's good news, I have Gilly in mine too. If you tried to read my posts, you would see I responded to someone who claimed that Dhoni was better and to think otherwise is "absurd to the extreme". You are the one who responded to that, so obviously I will explain my reasoning for the opposite. You could have started off with "I think Gilly is better too but..."

Anyway, I'm sure you agree my points stand.

Yep, stands as solid as molten lava.

 

[cricketsavant]

Yep, stands as solid as molten lava.

So, just to be clear, someone with more dismissals in 63 fewer games is not a good enough reason. You make so much sense sir. I hope to learn more from you

 

[harsh.ag]

Descending list of dismissals per innings in tests. Pant and Akmal wipe the floor with Knott and Healy. Suck it, nerds.

 

[srbhkshk]

I always knew Pant was a lot better keeper than ***** here claimed. Thanks for this Harsh.

 

[stephen]

Descending list of dismissals per innings in tests. Pant and Akmal wipe the floor with Knott and Healy. Suck it, nerds.

View attachment 25872

Paine > Gilchrist confirmed

 

[honestbharani]

So its not just MSD, but QdK too who is better than Gilly. Seems you need 3 letter initials to get the better of Gilly.

 

[Dendarii]

So its not just MSD, but QdK too who is better than Gilly. Seems you need 3 letter initials to get the better of Gilly.

And that conclusively proves that ABdV isn't better than Gilchrist - too many initials.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Is this a serious question?

Dhoni was a wicket keeper by profession, if he is not the greatest wicket keeper going, how can he be the greatest ODI cricketer? Unless you mean his batting was enough to make him the greatest ODI cricketer but there are plenty of batsmen who played around 5-6 in the order who were just as good and some may have been better ,especially as finishers. At the very least there is discussion on this issue, which again goes against Dhoni being the greatest ODI cricketer ever.

I always see it this way: if a player can not make it into a first choice, all time XI, then he can't be considered as the greatest.

Eh? I don't think anyone is legitimately claiming Dhoni is the undisputed, unanimously chosen greatest ODI player of all time. He has a claim to it, which was weakened by his hanging on too long unfortunately. But he does have a claim to it, especially as a great batsmen (one of the best) and as a great wicketkeeper (one of the best).

Out of curiosity, who do you think can claim is the greatest ODI player of all time? Because according to your definion, that player has to (I'm assuming) make 100% of everyone's first choice, all time XIs? I don't think even Sachin, Viv, Kohli, Imran or Wasim (as witnessed by the various threads) are making EVERYONE's first choice, all time XIs, because there will ALWAYS be a debate.

 

[Red]

Descending list of dismissals per innings in tests. Pant and Akmal wipe the floor with Knott and Healy. Suck it, nerds.

View attachment 25872

Thing that interested me most here is Dujon right down the bottom of the list.

I'd have thought the WI pace quartet barrages would've continually fed him catches.

Would be interesting to see a breakdown of how wickets were taken during Dujon/pace-quartets era for the WIs.

 

[Burgey]

Thing that interested me most here is Dujon right down the bottom of the list.

I'd have thought the WI pace quartet barrages would've continually fed him catches.

Would be interesting to see a breakdown of how wickets were taken during Dujon/pace-quartets era for the WIs.

Short leg and fine leg got a lot of their catches tbf

 

[Migara]

Short leg and fine leg got a lot of their catches tbf

Slips?

 

[Burgey]

Yeah them too

 

[trundler]

Out **** his pants would feature high I imagine

 

[TheJediBrah]

Out **** his pants would feature high I imagine

Matt Renshaw approves

 

[cricketsavant]

Eh? I don't think anyone is legitimately claiming Dhoni is the undisputed, unanimously chosen greatest ODI player of all time. He has a claim to it, which was weakened by his hanging on too long unfortunately. But he does have a claim to it, especially as a great batsmen (one of the best) and as a great wicketkeeper (one of the best).

Out of curiosity, who do you think can claim is the greatest ODI player of all time? Because according to your definion, that player has to (I'm assuming) make 100% of everyone's first choice, all time XIs? I don't think even Sachin, Viv, Kohli, Imran or Wasim (as witnessed by the various threads) are making EVERYONE's first choice, all time XIs, because there will ALWAYS be a debate.

Finally, a good constructive post sir!

So, first off, my argument was in response to a couple of posters who think exactly what you dont, that "claiming Dhoni is the undisputed, unanimously chosen greatest ODI player of all time". One poster even said it was "extremely absurd" to think Gilly was a better keeper, so there is some definite crazy bias here.

I personally, as stated in the thread on Dhoni's retirement think he was a very good cricketer, across all formats, but as you state, he stayed on too long, especially in the shorter format when he was often more problematic with his slower batting down the order to keep his wicket than as a great finisher (as he was in the first half of his career).

In terms of how I would define as the greatest cricketer, I never stated it is that a player should make it onto everyone's all time XI, certainly not on a random forum HOWEVER, someone to be in contention of such accolades that have to be present in most all time XIs and there must be consensus among the voices and people that matter (not just biased fans). But that is only one criteria, Dhoni may be 50-50 in that as his position of keeper batsman, but there are so many factors I could make a whole thread on it, but it would include skillset, achievements, legacy and so much more.

For me, Dhoni would certainly be a top 10-15 ODI cricketer, in competition with his contemporary Kohli for indias second greatest ODI cricketer, who could end up as their greatest (maybe greatest ever if he can have a great world cup campaign).

 

[cricketsavant]

Descending list of dismissals per innings in tests. Pant and Akmal wipe the floor with Knott and Healy. Suck it, nerds.

View attachment 25872

I know you're trying to be clever and you have your little hype men but as I stated, it is not just dismissals per innings. I also qualified looing at 200 dismissals minimum but if we go back to Dhoni v Gilly, Dhoni played 63 more games. If he is better, can you explain why he couldn't even take one more dismissal every other game?

I might have a long wait

 

[harsh.ag]

I know you're trying to be clever and you have your little hype men but as I stated, it is not just dismissals per innings. I also qualified looing at 200 dismissals minimum but if we go back to Dhoni v Gilly, Dhoni played 63 more games. If he is better, can you explain why he couldn't even take one more dismissal every other game?

I might have a long wait

Others have already told you why. That you choose to continue this faulty line of reasoning speaks only about how unwilling you are to change your mind.

 

[cricketsavant]

Others have already told you why. That you continue to continue this faulty line of reasoning speaks only about how unwilling you are to change your mind.

No, the reasoning does not work. This talk of creating also has to include taking chances, so if the idea is the number of chances a keeper has, must encapsulate all aspects of that discussions. So if you are intent on claiming Indian bowlers could not create merely 20 or so chances in 3 times as many games, then you also have to show how many chances were created and TAKEN by Dhoni. I can wait for this response too, before wem ove onto various other criteria I have mentioned.

 

[harsh.ag]

No, the reasoning does not work. This talk of creating also has to include taking chances, so if the idea is the number of chances a keeper has, must encapsulate all aspects of that discussions. So if you are intent on claiming Indian bowlers could not create merely 20 or so chances in 3 times as many games, then you also have to show how many chances were created and TAKEN by Dhoni. I can wait for this response too, before wem ove onto various other criteria I have mentioned.

Dude, you need to relax because I don't have to show anything. I saw the cricket. Gilly was a fantastic keeper and better at standing back to the wonderful bowling attack he had bowling for him. MSD had faster hands, a shrewder mind for LOs and was better at stumpings and run outs. The dismissal/game stats mean nothing.

 

[h_hurricane]

No, the reasoning does not work. This talk of creating also has to include taking chances, so if the idea is the number of chances a keeper has, must encapsulate all aspects of that discussions. So if you are intent on claiming Indian bowlers could not create merely 20 or so chances in 3 times as many games, then you also have to show how many chances were created and TAKEN by Dhoni. I can wait for this response too, before wem ove onto various other criteria I have mentioned.

You should be happy that Gilchrist is very high in the tests list and Dhoni nowhere to be seen.