Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

[stephen]

Era adjusting Gilchrist to Dhoni's era gets you an average of 38.1 @ 106.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Gilchrist took some ridiculous diving catches that I'm not sure Dhoni would get close to. His height definitely helped in that regard. Dhoni could be pretty special up to the stumps however. Both were ideal keepers for the needs of their team and bowling attack.

 

[stephen]

Like I said, I think MSD created chances off his own keeping skills far more than Gilly or any other keeper ever did. There are no stats for that but there are YouTube videos I can link you to. It is just something you need to have seen to understand and I pretty much watched both of them throughout their careers coz I loved folowing that ATG Aussie side, so to me Dhoni is the better keeper. He is also the better ODI batsman and one of the ATG captains of this format.

And I already stated why we have completely opposing PoVs on this discussion, I don't think you and I look at ODI batting the same way. So I don't think there is ever going to be much agreement between us on any ODI batting comparison.

In a nutshell, I think Bevan and Hussey are ATG ODI batsmen and far more relevant to an ATG side discussion than Gilly and Symonds.

I'm not, and have not been arguing that Gilchrist is better than Dhoni or vice versa. In fact I've consistently argued that which one you pick depends more on other players and team balance than anything else.

I was fact checking your assertions that in Gilchrist's time opening was the easiest position (it wasn't) and that batting 5-6 in Dhoni's time was harder than the other top 6 spots (it was).

Gilchrist was as good of a keeper as Dhoni. Dhoni created some incredible wickets when keeping up to the stumps but Gilchrist was probably better against the quicks (And kept to spin less in ODIs).

 

[Red]

RPI can actually have some use though. It's just not as good as using average.

It's as good as and probably better, tbh

 

[Red]

Dhoni faced far more balls than Gilchrist though. RPI cannot be brushed off that easily, if you score more runs per innings you're contributing more to the team total, its a fairly simple equation. Its not the only thing that should be looked at but it shows that the gap between how how good they were is definitely not as big as the difference in average suggests.

100%

 

[Red]

Of course Gilchrist is going to be higher. You get fed more catches playing with Australian bowlers/conditions than Indian.

No ****. Lose the condescension, again. I was responding to his inference that Dhoni was the better keeper because dismissals per innings, and showing him Gilchrist had a higher dismissals average per innings kept.

 

[stephen]

The thing is that both Gilchrist and Dhoni batted to the needs of the team (If you ignore Dhoni's last few years). Gilchrist's job was to go out and smack the opposition's best bowlers around without worrying about his wicket since he had Ponting, Martyn and Symonds to come. Dhoni's job was to bat out the innings.

Both were exceptional at their jobs.

 

[Red]

Those are 2 completely different things. You want to know how good they are? Use average.

You can keep saying this but you wont elaborate on it at all. I assume it's because you have no coherent argument about WHY batting average is a better indication of how good a batsman is as opposed to runs per innings, in ODIs.

 

[honestbharani]

I should clarify I think Gilly is a very good wicket keeper, just in terms of wicket keeping skills and I will be glad as a bowler if he was my keeper. I happen to think Dhoni is better based on the fact that he takes the chances he gets (and he would have got more if he was an Aussie) and he also creates opportunities out of nowhere. Its sad that the dismissal stats do not include run outs as MSD created so many more of those compared to any other keeper.

 

[Red]

How did Dhoni as keeper create run outs?

 

[ankitj]

Gilchrist took some ridiculous diving catches that I'm not sure Dhoni would get close to. His height definitely helped in that regard. Dhoni could be pretty special up to the stumps however. Both were ideal keepers for the needs of their team and bowling attack.

Also some of the run outs affected by Dhoni. He had great sense of how much time he had and used that to decide whether he should run with the ball or throw it. Couple of times he even threw the ball backwards through his legs to save time it would take to turn towards the wickets. I haven't seen anyone having such keen sense of time.

 

[trundler]

I take offence at being grouped with HB on this. My point is simple: Symonds's bowling is a complete non-factor and there are many better #5-7s. De Villiers is a lock at 5, Dhoni/Bevan/Hussey at 6. He sucked at 7 anyway. I don't think his batting was particularly suited to 7 anyway. At this point you may as well get Watson/Shakib or some other better all rounder and and chuck them at 7.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You can keep saying this but you wont elaborate on it at all. I assume it's because you have no coherent argument about WHY batting average is a better indication of how good a batsman is as opposed to runs per innings, in ODIs.

No, it's because we've been over this dozens of times. The coherent argument has been explained to you, then you just leave it, and come back a few months later saying the same thing. I can go through it all again but what would be the point? There was literally an entire thread on it.

No ****. Lose the condescension, again. I was responding to his inference that Dhoni was the better keeper because dismissals per innings, and showing him Gilchrist had a higher dismissals average per innings kept.

Calm down, I wasn't disagreeing or arguing with you.

 

[ankitj]

How did Dhoni as keeper create run outs?

There was one time where he just acted as though the throw is not coming in and so the batsman was running rather slow towards his end. But throw did come in and Dhoni at last moment collected and cleaned up stumps.

 

[trundler]

Era adjusting Gilchrist to Dhoni's era gets you an average of 38.1 @ 106.

Jason Roy then

 

[stephen]

There was one time where he just acted as though the throw is not coming in and so the batsman was running rather slow towards his end. But throw did come in and Dhoni at last moment collected and cleaned up stumps.

That is called fake fielding the days . (Which is the stupidest rule in the game IMO)

 

[TheJediBrah]

No that isn't fake fielding

 

[ankitj]

How did Dhoni as keeper create run outs?

Check this out.

 

[stephen]

Jason Roy then

Era adjusted to Roy's era Gilchrist gets 41@ 113. So a slightly more aggressive Jason Roy.

 

[stephen]

No that isn't fake fielding

I had hoped the would indicate my sarcasm.