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*Official* Pakistan in England 2020

91Jmay

International Coach
In the eyes of the system it is the same though. There's absolutely no way the umpire thought "ah I think that's hitting one inch above the bails vs one inch below, I'll give that not out" so the marginal difference on the projection is immaterial, because the projection only really serves to put things in one of three boxes labelled "out", "not out" and "umpire's call". I happen to think he's probably correct that ultra-marginal umpire's call decisions should be not out but the "line" for umpire's call should be moved to the top of the bails, so the one just now would have been three reds anyway.
Well an umpire wouldn't think in those clinical terms but they'd think that a ball trimming the bails is not out vs a 1/4 of a ball hitting the stumps is out.
The idea that last decision is a bad one because the Broad decision was given not out is just silly.
 

vcs

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Good last session from England, will be a massive effort if they can pull off this chase. Still unlikely, but less unlikely than it looked a few hours back.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Well an umpire wouldn't think in those clinical terms but they'd think that a ball trimming the bails is not out vs a 1/4 of a ball hitting the stumps is out.
The idea that last decision is a bad one because the Broad decision was given not out is just silly.
I don't think he's really critiquing the Kettleborough decision though? Just the protocol that led to it being upheld as out.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
You think Root's captaincy is why England is in this position? Seriously, come on. This is absurd. I don't like Root's captaincy as a rule but this is just egging a narrative for narrative's sake.
Is it the only reason? of course not, there is the matter of poor fielding, some poor selections, and Pakistan just bowing better. But the point is still valid - a failure to read the match situation, pro-actively assess conditions and how well players are performing. It’s not rocket science. Bowling your worst bowler against unsettled batsmen who have grown up belting better quality spinners than Bess is brainless. We aren’t playing WI today so I’m not sure what 3 tests ago has to do with this series.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Really? I suppose it's all about opinions. But the criticisms of Root were actually about him not grabbing the situation when we had them 4 down for not many in a situation when we needed to bowl them out for something ridiculously low to stay in the game.
We had Root needs to be sacked, Anderson is finished etc etc.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
I don't think he's really critiquing the Kettleborough decision though? Just the protocol that led to it being upheld as out.
Nah he is specifically bagging umpires being inconsistent. His view is umpires call means umpires should always give it not out, which removes any context of the individual decision.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Nah he is specifically bagging umpires being inconsistent. His view is umpires call means umpires should always give it not out, which removes any context of the individual decision.
Right but that requires a fundamental change in the protocol. The third umpire isn't making a "decision", he's simply applying the protocol as currently exists.

Is it the only reason? of course not, there is the matter of poor fielding, some poor selections, and Pakistan just bowing better. But the point is still valid - a failure to read the match situation, pro-actively assess conditions and how well players are performing. It’s not rocket science. Bowling your worst bowler against unsettled batsmen who have grown up belting better quality spinners than Bess is brainless. We aren’t playing WI today so I’m not sure what 3 tests ago has to do with this series.
I wouldn't put it in like the top ten reasons why England is in the position it's in, not least because the person mainly responsible for Bess leaking a stack of quick runs on a pitch that should be really suited to spinners is Bess himself.
 

flibbertyjibber

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Just a bit. :laugh:
Don't want to kick him too much as to be fair to him he has batted as well as he has in tests in the last couple of games under immense pressure for him personally and gamewise but the glovework has got to the standard that Prior was dropped for years ago.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Right but that requires a fundamental change in the protocol. The third umpire isn't making a "decision", he's simply applying the protocol as currently exists.
Why does it? The protocol is that umpires call means there isn't evidence of an umpires mistake, not that the umpire can't be sure it's out if it's umpires call. That isn't what umpires call is saying but he has created his own interpretation
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Why does it? The protocol is that umpires call means there isn't evidence of an umpires mistake, not that the umpire can't be sure it's out if it's umpires call. That isn't what umpires call is saying but he has created his own interpretation
?

He's suggesting that umpire's call should be not out, end of story. That obviously would require a change in the protocol to implement. You're establishing reasons that justify the choice of protocol, but none of what you said is the protocol itself. The protocol is simply defined by whether the ball is projected to impact certain areas around the stumps, that's it. It's an entirely automated process.
 

flibbertyjibber

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We had Root needs to be sacked, Anderson is finished etc etc.
Anderson isn't looking his usual self and at 38 it is easy to put it down to age. Hardly staggering, in a low scoring game he has 1-100 and is going at a very expensive 3.5 an over by his own standards.

Root is the clear winner of craptaincy too. He is poor.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
?

He's suggesting that umpire's call should be not out, end of story. That obviously would require a change in the protocol to implement.
No he isn't, did you even listen to him? His whole point is that the umpires make a mistake it they give an LBW that turns out to be umpires call because they can't be 100% sure. That is patently nonsense.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
The Anderson is finished argument doesn’t have legs yet (much the same way that the Bevan is finished argument didn’t back in the day after which he went on to top the domestic averages the following season). Problem is once you have the odd few bad games at 33+ years of age it is the first thing on everyone’s lips.
 

trundler

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All he's saying is that they should have a consistent approach to similar looking dismissals. In the Eng-WI series WI had lots of marginal calls turned down but England had them given. It isn't hard to comprehend or particularly controversial.

Stokes is due a miracle with the bat.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
No he isn't, did you even listen to him? His whole point is that the umpires make a mistake it they give an LBW that turns out to be umpires call because they can't be 100% sure. That is patently nonsense.
Yes but that requires a change in the protocol to implement. Currently such projections are hardwired in the code of Hawkeye to return umpire's call. It would require rewriting the protocol to make such projections return as a not out decision in order to get the outcome he seeks. You could easily do this if you wanted to.

I feel you are imagining the DRS protocol as some sort of process by which someone looks at the projection and then makes a judgement on what it looks like afterwards as to how it returns. It is not. It is simply a mathematical process that returns values purely based on where the ball is projected to be and whether it falls into one of three entirely arbitrarily defined zones, and with one zone being a weird "umpire's call" zone. Given that this is far from the first time that someone has complained about umpire's call returning by-definition inconsistent decisions, then I don't really get why you find this suggestion so outrageous.

All he's saying is that they should have a consistent approach to similar looking dismissals. In the Eng-WI series WI had lots of marginal calls turned down but England had them given. It isn't hard to comprehend or particularly controversial.

Stokes is due a miracle with the bat.
Exactly. All it would need is a redefinition of the DRS protocol, which they've actually done recently by shrinking the umpire's call zone by line. IMO they need to do the same by height.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
We had Root needs to be sacked, Anderson is finished etc etc.
We had various comments about Anderson. Mine was simply about his figures this summer, others thought he may be finished. It's a valid discussion about a 38 year old fast bowler. Ditto Root. Lots of people specifically criticised his handling of Bess this afternoon. My comment about this being a sacking offence wasn't entirely serious, but granted I didn't add an emoji to make that obvious. But it's just a bunch of people talking about cricket. We have opinions, and they won't always be fully rounded when our side isn't doing well. It's a conversation, not a series of balanced essays on the matter. And some of the opinions may be wrong, but it's probably better airing them here than boring our loved ones with them. What I don't really understand is people turning up to have a pop at guys having said discussion. That seems odd to me.
 

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