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*Official* West Indies Tour of England 2020

Howe_zat

Audio File
West Indies are definitely our bogey team, compared to how well everyone else does against them. Always take a test off us and we got smashed in Barbados last year.

Strangely the last two sides to win a series in England (SA and SL) are the teams that we have done the best against ever since.

Pakistan something of a bogey team too.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If somehow 2 or 3 out of Brooks, Hope, Pooran, Hetmeyer, Chase, or Blackwood can kick on to average 38+ they'll stay in games a lot longer and could possibly challenge the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and the current South African side.
SA batting will improve quite drastically in the next 2 years, unless Cricket SA implodes... which is possible.
 

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
West Indies are definitely our bogey team, compared to how well everyone else does against them. Always take a test off us and we got smashed in Barbados last year.

Strangely the last two sides to win a series in England (SA and SL) are the teams that we have done the best against ever since.

Pakistan something of a bogey team too.
As a Kiwi I'm still annoyed about the 2015 1st test at Lord's. We should've won that series but overdid the attacking and blew it.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I mean, there is absolutely no way you know that for certain.
From where SA batting is now and based on the young talent that is sitting at FC level, SA batting can only improve... of course this requires good selection policy, not losing the players and of course overcoming the internal problems within Cricket SA.
 

vcs

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England's bogey teams are Pakistan and WI. SA's bogey team is England. NZ's bogey team is SA. Australia have a "bogey conditions" (Asia) problem, rather than a bogey team. Same goes for India, who suck when the ball moves.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Genuine question, were are the runs going to come from for WI in the next few years? I know that Darren Bravo was unavailable for this series, which is really unfortunate (but to be honest, it's been a long time since even he was a consistent run maker at test level). For the WI posters, is there anyone who looks vaguely likely of helping to turn this around? Or are WI just going to have to try and make the best of a bad situation for the next 4 or 5 years?
I think it might be another difficult couple of years. The reason this generations batsmen are so poor IMHO is that they have learned their cricket on terrible pitches. It is only over the last 2 years that we have had much better pitches and therefore multiple people averaging 50 or more over the course of a season. I think this will start to show results in the next 2 to 3 years but for now we are just going to have to find ways around it and hope that one or two of this generation come through. Personally, I would hope the below can make it and at least improve our test match batting slightly.

Nicholas Pooran - I've seen him discussed in this thread. Personally I would bring him into the set up for the series against South Africa in September (hopefully!). He is an insanely talented strokemaker yes but if you watch him bat in ODI's he has a very sound technique to back it up. I don't see what we have got to lose by including him. The counter argument I have heard is that it is unfair on those who perform in FC cricket (like Bonner over the last 2 years for example), but I don't think we can afford to be sentimental.

Shimron Hetmeyer - Again, insanely talented, can't build an innings. I'd prioritise getting him to play a season of FC as he has been given a go at test level and proven he can score runs but that he needs to work on the mental side and building an innings. Has too much talent to sit out for long.

Brandon King - Beautiful batsman to watch. Has done reasonably in FC cricket and really well against India A against some good bowlers. Because he had a good CPL they put him into the T20 and ODI side which meant he didn't get to play the FC season, which is a mistake. I would make sure he plays the next FC season/A series with a view to promoting him.

Joshua Da Silva - Good technique and an awesome work ethic. Really kicked on last year in both List A and FC cricket. Scoring runs in the intra-squad match will have done him no harm at all. I just have a feeling he may get a call up soon, Coach Simmons will have been very impressed with him.

Kyle Mayers - Older than the others at 27 years of age but his batting has come on hugely in the last 2 years. He was the second best batsman in FC cricket last year after Blackwood and if anything was more consistent than him. He would be a number 5 or 6, excellent at coming in and scoring quickly against tiring attacks. Also an excellent medium pacer with big induckers.

Those are the ones I'm following anyway. Obviously Darren Bravo finally returned to domestic cricket and scored lots of runs, appearing like he had the flow of batting back, so he would likely get the nod before any of those I mentioned. The biggest issue of all and one that I don;t see a solution for is the opening batsman to partner Kraigg. We just don;t have any realistic options available. Next in line would be Shayne Moseley but he is far far worse than Campbell IMHO. He is extremely vulnerable just outside off stump, not a great trait for an opener.

However, as this series has shown, our management are stubborn as hell and very reluctant to make changes. So an unchanged lineup is not beyond the realms of possibility. More than anything, I want our batting lineup to represent the Caribbean. This lineup is so meek and full of overcoached right handers. We need to inject some flair and be able to at least try and fight back. That afternoon and evening session on Day 2 was horrid, like lambs to the slaughter with not even an attempt to put pressure back on the bowlers until Blackwood came in. We need a better blend of attack and defence.
 

OverratedSanity

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England's bogey teams are Pakistan and WI. SA's bogey team is England. NZ's bogey team is SA. Australia have a "bogey conditions" (Asia) problem, rather than a bogey team. Same goes for India, who suck when the ball moves.
NZ usually play great for months on end and go flaccid when faced with anything mildly Australian.
 

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
England's bogey teams are Pakistan and WI. SA's bogey team is England. NZ's bogey team is SA. Australia have a "bogey conditions" (Asia) problem, rather than a bogey team. Same goes for India, who suck when the ball moves.
That's pretty accurate. Also South Africa and Australia usually play better against each other away from home (except sandpapergate).
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Despite a dysfunctional top 6 they've been pretty even with England over the last 4-5 years.
Our bowling attack is excellent basically. We can bowl most teams out, particularly England whose batting has not exactly been great themselves. In this series out attack has definitely petered out with the back to back to back tests but in normal circumstances our bowling will be challenging for a whole series whilst our batting will be awful 70% of the time with the odd test where they chip in enough cameos as a group to get some runs on the board (e.g the first test in this series).

As others have said, if we bat even slightly better we will win more tests. So therefore the constant sticking with the rampant mediocrity of our current lineup is infuriating. It cannot get worse.
 

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
England's bogey teams are Pakistan and WI. SA's bogey team is England. NZ's bogey team is SA. Australia have a "bogey conditions" (Asia) problem, rather than a bogey team. Same goes for India, who suck when the ball moves.
NZ also get spooked and destroyed when they play Australia.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
That's pretty accurate. Also South Africa and Australia usually play better against each other away from home (except sandpapergate).
SLwere able to beat Pak away a few times too, IIRC. Guessing they are each others' bogey teams? India is basically bogey for anyone coming here and SENA is bogey for us.
 

trundler

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Historically Pakistan have almost all of their tests in London. Won at Lord's last time too. Without a test being played there this time, things could be very different.
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
England's bogey teams are Pakistan and WI. SA's bogey team is England. NZ's bogey team is SA. Australia have a "bogey conditions" (Asia) problem, rather than a bogey team. Same goes for India, who suck when the ball moves.
Nah NZ have a real problem with Australia. Won 1, drawn 1 and lost 10 this decade and haven't won a series in forever.
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
I think it might be another difficult couple of years. The reason this generations batsmen are so poor IMHO is that they have learned their cricket on terrible pitches. It is only over the last 2 years that we have had much better pitches and therefore multiple people averaging 50 or more over the course of a season. I think this will start to show results in the next 2 to 3 years but for now we are just going to have to find ways around it and hope that one or two of this generation come through. Personally, I would hope the below can make it and at least improve our test match batting slightly.

Nicholas Pooran - I've seen him discussed in this thread. Personally I would bring him into the set up for the series against South Africa in September (hopefully!). He is an insanely talented strokemaker yes but if you watch him bat in ODI's he has a very sound technique to back it up. I don't see what we have got to lose by including him. The counter argument I have heard is that it is unfair on those who perform in FC cricket (like Bonner over the last 2 years for example), but I don't think we can afford to be sentimental.

Shimron Hetmeyer - Again, insanely talented, can't build an innings. I'd prioritise getting him to play a season of FC as he has been given a go at test level and proven he can score runs but that he needs to work on the mental side and building an innings. Has too much talent to sit out for long.

Brandon King - Beautiful batsman to watch. Has done reasonably in FC cricket and really well against India A against some good bowlers. Because he had a good CPL they put him into the T20 and ODI side which meant he didn't get to play the FC season, which is a mistake. I would make sure he plays the next FC season/A series with a view to promoting him.

Joshua Da Silva - Good technique and an awesome work ethic. Really kicked on last year in both List A and FC cricket. Scoring runs in the intra-squad match will have done him no harm at all. I just have a feeling he may get a call up soon, Coach Simmons will have been very impressed with him.

Kyle Mayers - Older than the others at 27 years of age but his batting has come on hugely in the last 2 years. He was the second best batsman in FC cricket last year after Blackwood and if anything was more consistent than him. He would be a number 5 or 6, excellent at coming in and scoring quickly against tiring attacks. Also an excellent medium pacer with big induckers.

Those are the ones I'm following anyway. Obviously Darren Bravo finally returned to domestic cricket and scored lots of runs, appearing like he had the flow of batting back, so he would likely get the nod before any of those I mentioned. The biggest issue of all and one that I don;t see a solution for is the opening batsman to partner Kraigg. We just don;t have any realistic options available. Next in line would be Shayne Moseley but he is far far worse than Campbell IMHO. He is extremely vulnerable just outside off stump, not a great trait for an opener.

However, as this series has shown, our management are stubborn as hell and very reluctant to make changes. So an unchanged lineup is not beyond the realms of possibility. More than anything, I want our batting lineup to represent the Caribbean. This lineup is so meek and full of overcoached right handers. We need to inject some flair and be able to at least try and fight back. That afternoon and evening session on Day 2 was horrid, like lambs to the slaughter with not even an attempt to put pressure back on the bowlers until Blackwood came in. We need a better blend of attack and defence.

I wouldn't mind John Campbell dropping down the order actually. Might not work with Blackwood there as well but I really like the way he hits the ball. Touch too aggressive to open with though
 

Flem274*

123/5
might be worth looking at the batsmen with the best conversion rates. west indian domestic decks will cause everyone problems early in their innings, but bad pitches also produce speculative batsmen who play as many shots as possible because a hand grenade is coming anyway. if you can find who is lasting the longest once they're as in as you can be on your domestic decks, you might find guys with some ruthlessness they can bring to test level.

blackwood and hetmyer are really good examples of talented players ruined by developing on terrible decks. compulsive shot players, so averaging in the mid 30s is inevitable.
 

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