England's best/worst since 66 and all that

[BoyBrumby]

Our national football team's ongoing tournament travails have been touched on in the recent "The most depressed you've been after a sporting event" thread, so I thought it was time to bring CW's collective analytical acumen to bear on ranking them in some kind of order.

I've excluded the 1968 European Nations Cup as "The Euros" as we know them didn't begin in earnest until 1980, with the "tournament" proper only consisting of two semis and a final prior to that.

So, in chronological order we have:

A) 1970 World Cup - quarter finalists. Group stage (2nd Group 3): Romania W1-0, Brazil L0-1, Czechoslovakia W1-0; quarter-final: West Germany L2-3 (AET).

B) Euro 1980 - group stage. Group stage (3rd Group 2): Belgium D1-1, Italy L0-1, Spain W2-1

C) 1982 World Cup - second group stage. First group stage (1st Group 4): France W3-1, Czechoslovakia W2-0, Kuwait W1-0; second group stage (2nd Group B): West Germany D0-0, Spain D0-0.

D) 1986 World Cup - quarter finalists. Group stage (2nd Group F): Portugal L0-1, Morocco D0-0, Poland W3-0; second round: Paraguay W3-0; quarter-final: Argentina L1-2.

E) Euro 1988 - group stage. Group stage (4th Group 2): Eire L0-1, Netherlands L1-3, Soviet Union L1-3.

F) 1990 World Cup - 4th place. Group stage (1st Group F): Eire D1-1, Netherlands D0-0, Egypt W1-0; second round: Belgium W1-0 (AET); quarter-final: Cameroon W3-2 (AET); semi-final: West Germany D1-1 (AET), lost 4-3 on pens; third place play off: Italy L1-2

G) Euro 1992 - group stage. Group stage (4th Group 2): Denmark D0-0, France D0-0, Sweden L1-2

H) Euro 1996 - semi finalists. Group stage (1st Group A): Switzerland D1-1, Scotland W2-0, Netherlands W4-1; quarter-final: Spain D0-0 (AET), won 4-2 on pens; semi-final: Germany D1-1 (AET), lost 6-5 on pens.

I) 1998 World Cup - second round. Group stage (2nd Group G): Tunisia W2-0, Romania L1-2, Colombia W2-0; second round: Argentina D2-2 (AET), lost 4-3 on pens

J) Euro 2000 - group stage. Group stage (3rd Group A): Portugal L2-3, Germany W1-0, Romania L2-3

K) 2002 World Cup - quarter finalists. Group stage (2nd Group F): Sweden D1-1, Argentina W1-0, Nigeria D0-0; second round: Denmark W3-0; quarter-final: Brazil L1-2

L) Euro 2004 -quarter finalists. Group stage (2nd Group B): France L1-2, Switzerland W3-0, Croatia W4-2; quarter-final: Portugal D2-2 (AET), lost 6-5 on pens

M) 2006 World Cup - quarter finalists. Group stage (1st Group B): Paraguay W1-0, Trinidad & Tobago W2-0, Sweden D2-2; second round: Ecuador W1-0; quarter-final: Portugal D0-0 (AET), lost 3-1 on pens

N) 2010 World Cup - second round. Group stage (2nd Group C): USA D1-1, Algeria D0-0, Slovenia W1-0; second round: Germany L1-4

O) Euro 2012 - quarter finalists. Group stage (1st Group D): France D1-1, Sweden W3-2, Ukraine W1-0; quarter final: Italy D0-0 (AET), lost 4-2 on pens

P) 2014 World Cup - group stage. Group stage (4th Group D): Italy L1-2, Uruguay L1-2, Costa Rica D0-0

Q) Euro 2016 - second round. Group stage (2nd Group B): Russia D1-1, Wales W2-1, Slovakia D0-0; second round: Iceland L1-2

R) 2018 World Cup - 4th place. Group stage (2nd Group G): Tunisia W2-1, Panama W6-1, Belgium L0-1; second round: Columbia D1-1 (AET), won 4-3 on pens; quarter-final: Sweden W2-0; semi-final: Croatia L1-2 (AET); third place play off: Belgium L0-2

---

Your job is to put them in order of quality of performance, taking into account achievement, quality of opposition, personal bias, spite, malice, dirty cheating foreigners, etc.

I think the big take home lessons are we tend to do better in world cups and to avoid playing anyone vaguely decent for a long as possible...

 

[harsh.ag]

This is paid work

 

[sledger]

This list makes me realise that during my lifetime England rarely have mediocre tournaments. They tend to either be pretty quite good or the absolute pits.

 

[wpdavid]

I did consider doing this but changed my mind when I realised how many tourneys are involved. I did also consider including those that we didn't qualify for; e.g. losing out to Italy in 1978 was arguably more respectable than what we achieved in the 1988, 2010 and 2016 tournaments that we did qualify for. But happy to go with the flow.

 

[sledger]

Not sure which is worst between 2010 and 2014 for me.

The 2010 team was just absolutely dour. The 2014 team was better, but horrible tactics and so on, and just played like crap.

 

[wpdavid]

Here are a few immediate thoughts.

1990 and 2018 way superior to anything else. Maybe 2018 top as we were pretty lucky to beat Belgium and Cameroon in 1990.


Second tier performances in 1982 (unbeaten against mostly decent opposition) and 1996. Maybe 1982 above 1996 actually.

Third tier includes 1970,1986, 2002 , 2004 and 2012.

Fourth tier 1980, 1992 and 2006

Then 2000 and 2014 .

1988, 2010 and 2016 in the bottom 3.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Best teams I have seen are 1990 and 1996 and they are my favourite tournaments because of that. I thought the 2018 team was lucky with the draw as whenever we played a half decent side we were soundly beaten. Everything else bar 98 has been meh, and 98 was probably the biggest frustration as we had a very good squad and went out because of a stupid decision by a youngster and a crap refereeing decision. Not saying we would have won it but we would have given it a go which most of our other sides never do/did.

 

[wpdavid]

Not sure which is worst between 2010 and 2014 for me.

The 2010 team was just absolutely dour. The 2014 team was better, but horrible tactics and so on, and just played like crap.

I thought 2014 was more bearable than 2010. Losing to Italy and Uruguay was not nice, but they were both close matches against good teams and the latter was down to one defensive error. I known we were poor in the final game, but we were effectively out by then.
Whereas failing to beat USA and Algeria in 2010 was pathetic. And we just lost our heads when losing 4-1 to Germany.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I can't help but think 2018 is going to be seen as the greatest missed opportunity.

We were actually playing reasonable football and, decent as Croatia are, they're no Germany.

France would probably spanked us, but a final would've been nice.

1988 is the worst for me. We beat a very decent Yugoslavia 4-1 over there in qualifying and travelled with fairly high hopes that were based on more than blind faith for once. We just never turned up and Sir Bobby (RIP) was probably quite lucky to still be in situ for Italia 90.

 

[sledger]

I thought 2014 was more bearable than 2010. Losing to Italy and Uruguay was not nice, but they were both close matches against good teams and the latter was down to one defensive error. I known we were poor in the final game, but we were effectively out by then.
Whereas failing to beat USA and Algeria in 2010 was pathetic. And we just lost our heads when losing 4-1 to Germany.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I think for me though, 2010 was a case of crap team getting what it deserved, whereas 2014 was an improved team playing like crap and should have done better.

 

[wpdavid]

1988 is the worst for me. We beat a very decent Yugoslavia 4-1 over there in qualifying and travelled with fairly high hopes that were based on more than blind faith for once. We just never turned up and Sir Bobby (RIP) was probably quite lucky to still be in situ for Italia 90.

Yes, we had a decent bunch of players who just didn't deliver. As well as the afore-mentioned match in Yugoslavia, we'd also scored four in a friendly in Spain a year or so before the euros. Barnes and Beardsley had looked world class for Liverpool that year but didn't do a thing . Maybe that indicates the difference between English football and the best European football three years into the post Heysel ban. Lineker's illness the one mitigating factor, but we should have been so much better.

 

[Pothas]

I can't help but think 2018 is going to be seen as the greatest missed opportunity.

We were actually playing reasonable football and, decent as Croatia are, they're no Germany.

France would probably spanked us, but a final would've been nice.

Certainly never going to get a more favourable draw in World Cups than they got in 2018 but I think if it is seen as a missed opportunity will depend on the next few tournaments. Certainly don't want to hype them up or anything but the squad at the next couple of tournaments is going to be so much better then the one at 2018.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The omitted Euros in 72 and 76 were very strong tournaments. Although only the last 4 was played as a knockout tournament at a neutral venue, there were full qualifying rounds and two-legged Quarter Finals. England reached the quarterfinals in 72 losing 3-1 at Wembley and drawing 0-0 away to lose on aggregate to West Germany. Germany were at their efficient best beating Russia 3-0 in the Final.
In 76 England lost in the qualifying group to Czechoslovakia who went on to win the tournament. They beat West Germany on penalties in the Final after a 2-2 draw. That shoot out gave birth to the Panenka penalty.
Doesn’t add much to England’s legacy, but those tournaments shouldn’t be dismissed as Micky Mouse events akin to the recently introduced Nations League.

 

[grecian]

The omitted Euros in 72 and 76 were very strong tournaments. Although only the last 4 was played as a knockout tournament at a neutral venue, there were full qualifying rounds and two-legged Quarter Finals. England reached the quarterfinals in 72 losing 3-1 at Wembley and drawing 0-0 away to lose on aggregate to West Germany. Germany were at their efficient best beating Russia 3-0 in the Final.
In 76 England lost in the qualifying group to Czechoslovakia who went on to win the tournament. They beat West Germany on penalties in the Final after a 2-2 draw. That shoot out gave birth to the Panenka penalty.
Doesn’t add much to England’s legacy, but those tournaments shouldn’t be dismissed as Micky Mouse events akin to the recently introduced Nations League.

Bit before my time, but I was watching an old Big Match, that showed this match the other month. Think at the start of the football season, so months after. Weird that in the commentary they didn't really remark the penalty was funky at all, just he scored. Brian Moore mentioned what a good game it was, but weirdly his main takeaway was this proves that we really need Summer football in England, citing all the terrible pitches of the 70s. Funny the big talking points, as I presume he wasn't on his own in this, that gets forgotten in the mists of time.

 

[Howe_zat]

This list makes me realise that during my lifetime England rarely have mediocre tournaments. They tend to either be pretty quite good or the absolute pits.

I'd say the run of QF exits in the 2000s was pretty middle of the road. England went in to those tournaments with a little more expectation on them than they deserved (as is their wont), but it wasn't halfway as lousy a showing as the criminally overrated 'golden generation' teams of the first few post-Beckham efforts.

 

[wpdavid]

The omitted Euros in 72 and 76 were very strong tournaments. Although only the last 4 was played as a knockout tournament at a neutral venue, there were full qualifying rounds and two-legged Quarter Finals. England reached the quarterfinals in 72 losing 3-1 at Wembley and drawing 0-0 away to lose on aggregate to West Germany. Germany were at their efficient best beating Russia 3-0 in the Final.
In 76 England lost in the qualifying group to Czechoslovakia who went on to win the tournament. They beat West Germany on penalties in the Final after a 2-2 draw. That shoot out gave birth to the Panenka penalty.
Doesn’t add much to England’s legacy, but those tournaments shouldn’t be dismissed as Micky Mouse events akin to the recently introduced Nations League.

On the face of it, losing to that 1972 West German side was no disgrace. I was at the Wembley game when they beat us 3-1 and, for once, I wasn't particularly grumpy about it. You just had to acknowledge that the Germans were superb and we were second best. And I know you're being tongue-in-cheek about their efficient win in the final, but that side was way better than that. Not least due to the performances of the magnificent Netzer. However, we were in decline and we only got that far due to a really soft qualifying group. And as you suggested, losing out to the eventual winners of the 1976 euros wasn't a complete disgrace, although it felt like one at the time. Our failure to qualify for three consecutive tournaments mean that the 1970s have been written off as a disaster zone by some, but only one team qualified from those groups, and the sides that knocked us out finished 3rd in the 1974 WC, won the 1976 euros and finished 4th in the 1978 WC.

 

[Uppercut]

English footballing failures are a subject very close to my heart, so I'll do it for the ones of my lifetime.

1. H) Euro 1996 - semi finalists. Group stage (1st Group A): Switzerland D1-1, Scotland W2-0, Netherlands W4-1; quarter-final: Spain D0-0 (AET), won 4-2 on pens; semi-final: Germany D1-1 (AET), lost 6-5 on pens.

An ongoing theme is that the difference between the best and worst tournaments isn't actually that big - there were some very average performances and a big stroke of luck in the quarters against Spain. But beating the Netherlands 4-1 is easily their best result at a post-1990 tournament, and they definitely shaded the semi-final against Germany.

2. R) 2018 World Cup - 4th place. Group stage (2nd Group G): Tunisia W2-1, Panama W6-1, Belgium L0-1; second round: Columbia D1-1 (AET), won 4-3 on pens; quarter-final: Sweden W2-0; semi-final: Croatia L1-2 (AET); third place play off: Belgium L0-2

They didn't beat anyone good, but at the time I thought they were kind of underrated, which had never come close to happening before. They played some decent stuff.


3. L) Euro 2004 -quarter finalists. Group stage (2nd Group B): France L1-2, Switzerland W3-0, Croatia W4-2; quarter-final: Portugal D2-2 (AET), lost 6-5 on pens

Maybe a little controversial to have it above 1990, but I watched a bit of this recently and England were a lot better than I remembered. A narrow late loss to France in a game where they were the better team, then two crushing wins where they played great attacking football. The Rooney injury was a killer, but even with that they could easily have gone through. For all the talk now of tactical failings the team with a Scholes LM+Lampard+Gerrard midfield was at least as good as the 2018 side imo, if a lot less likeable.

4. F) 1990 World Cup - 4th place. Group stage (1st Group F): Eire D1-1, Netherlands D0-0, Egypt W1-0; second round: Belgium W1-0 (AET); quarter-final: Cameroon W3-2 (AET); semi-final: West Germany D1-1 (AET), lost 4-3 on pens; third place play off: Italy L1-2

Granted I was only a few months old at the time, but I'm struck by how deeply unimpressive those results are in contrast to the memory of the tournament, and the highlights suggest a lot of luck was involved in going as far as they did.

5. K) 2002 World Cup - quarter finalists. Group stage (2nd Group F): Sweden D1-1, Argentina W1-0, Nigeria D0-0; second round: Denmark W3-0; quarter-final: Brazil L1-2

Hard one to evaluate really. The performances were a bit functional, but they were the second-best team in the tournament and went out to the clear best team. I guess the last half-hour against Brazil's ten men was so anti-climactic that a lot of England fans found it hard to feel positive about.

6. I) 1998 World Cup - second round. Group stage (2nd Group G): Tunisia W2-0, Romania L1-2, Colombia W2-0; second round: Argentina D2-2 (AET), lost 4-3 on pens

England were decent enough in 98, but in contrast to 2004, I don't think they would have gone much further if they'd got past Argentina, who were clearly weaker than the Holland, Brazil, and France sides they'd have met in later rounds.

7. M) 2006 World Cup - quarter finalists. Group stage (1st Group B): Paraguay W1-0, Trinidad & Tobago W2-0, Sweden D2-2; second round: Ecuador W1-0; quarter-final: Portugal D0-0 (AET), lost 3-1 on pens

Easily the worst of the Sven-era tournaments, and the one that colours the memory of his whole reign. The football was turgid, the team and media were at their most obnoxious. England winning any tournament would be a travesty, but this might be the one I'd have least wanted England to win.

8.
O) Euro 2012 - quarter finalists. Group stage (1st Group D): France D1-1, Sweden W3-2, Ukraine W1-0; quarter final: Italy D0-0 (AET), lost 4-2 on pens

Funny because on paper this one doesn't look too bad, but Hodgson acted like he'd given up before they'd even arrived, and for some reason - trauma from 2010 maybe? - the media just sort of accepted it.

A stand-out memory of the tournament is Mark Lawrenson being a complete dick on commentary in the QF, bagging everyone constantly like a 13-year-old girl on a family holiday. I wonder if it wouldn't have felt so pathetic if it had been Barry Davies with no co-comm.

9. J) Euro 2000 - group stage. Group stage (3rd Group A): Portugal L2-3, Germany W1-0, Romania L2-3

The win over Germany keeps it safe of the relegation zone, but there's no real excuse for how badly this England side lagged behind every other one from '96-'06. The Romania game especially was arguably their worst tournament performance of the last 30 years, Romania were a very, very weak side to go out to.

10. G) Euro 1992 - group stage. Group stage (4th Group 2): Denmark D0-0, France D0-0, Sweden L1-2

Into the real smellers now, this one I have no memory or knowledge of, but the collective decision to completely pretend it never happened seems understandable.

11. Q) Euro 2016 - second round. Group stage (2nd Group B): Russia D1-1, Wales W2-1, Slovakia D0-0; second round: Iceland L1-2

Strange that 2014 was met with "ehh, what can you do with such **** players" but after this one Hodgson got the full English abuse. Despite Hodgson constantly talking them down, England had a decent squad of players that a better manager could have got something out of. But in their defence, Iceland were a perfectly good side, and the media had no right to expect England to roll them over.

12.
P) 2014 World Cup - group stage. Group stage (4th Group D): Italy L1-2, Uruguay L1-2, Costa Rica D0-0

They had a tough draw, and some might put it higher because they didn't exactly embarrass themselves. But there's just no redeeming feature about this one. Hodgson convinced everyone that a fine-but-not-amazing squad was the absolute pits, which meant he somehow escaped the blame when a series of tactical blunders caused them to bomb out.

13. N) 2010 World Cup - second round. Group stage (2nd Group C): USA D1-1, Algeria D0-0, Slovenia W1-0; second round: Germany L1-4

They got out of the group stage before losing to a truly memorably side, but even so, it really has to be this one doesn't it? The bird perched on the Algerian crossbar, a blatantly unfit Rooney giving the fans a mouthful after his latest shocker of a performance, conceding a goal straight from a goal kick 5 minutes into their first knockout game. This was peak toxic-England-football, a squad with some absolute throbbers and a whopper of a manager, built up by the media only to be mercilessly abused when they failed miserably to get anywhere near their expectations. It was really, really funny.

 

[wpdavid]

I reckon that Uppercut's 1 to 4 are hard to dispute, although we will differ over the order. Ditto 5 &6 and, I would suggest, 7 & 8 and 9 to 12. 2010 in a class of its own from the ones listed above.

 

[wpdavid]

Not that anyone asked, but here are some memories of the 1980 euros; our first tournament that we'd played since 1970, and the first that we'd qualified for since 1962. In those days you had to win your qualifying group, which we did easily ahead of Denmark, Bulgaria, Norther Ireland and Republic of Ireland. In the months leading up to the euros, Greenwood decided to play without a traditional centre forward, instead pairing Trevor Francis with Tony Woodcock, with Keegan linking from midfield. And they played really well like that, scoring five in Belfast and, even more impressively, winning 2-0 in Spain and looking excellent. Francis was injured near the end of the season, but David Johnson looked a decent replacement scoring twice when we beat world champions Argentina plus a very young Maradona 3-1 a month before the euros. Hopes were high, even though we needed to win our group to progress, and Belgium, hosts Italy and Spain were nobody's mugs.

First up Belgium; a good side who had often run the great Dutch side close during the 1970s. It all looked good when Ray Wilkins scored a sublime goal to pout us ahead; chipping the ball over oncoming defenders to put himself one on lone with their keeper, who he also chipped. We had no idea he was as good as that, as he rarely found the net against anyone. Unfortunately Phil Neal then proceeded to show us how bad he was. Belgium had a corner a couple of minutes after our goal which was half cleared and headed back towards our goal. No problem, we thought, as Neal was positioned to clear it from the edge of our six yard box. One air kick later, the ball was still in the danger area but somehow Neal had possession. Just clear the ****ing ball Phil. Nope, either a another miskick or an attempt to dribble the ball to safety meant the a ball was still there for Jan Ceulemans to put it out of its misery for 1-1. Then the rioting English fans and then the tear gas. Maybe that's why the referee inexplicably disallowed a Tony Woodcock 'goal' that would have won the game.

Next up Italy, which was never going to be easy. A really tight match in which neither side created a lot. England were unlucky when Ray Kennedy hit the woodwork but looked to be heading for a draw until Neal intervened again. Closing down the Italian centre forward Graziani on the right touch line shouldn't have been a problem, but instead Graziani skinned him. Graziani wasn't particularly fast, but Neal was ridiculously slow. Graziani crossed, Tardelli scored and game, and tournament over. For what it's worth, we won the third game against Spain 2-1.

Our performances were widely panned, perhaps a bit unfairly. Ultimately the dropped points against Belgium and Italy were down to one individual's errors, and playing Italy in their own back yard was always going to be tough. Maybe the switch from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 meant that Coppell shouldn't have been retained on the right. Hoddle would probably have offered more, or even a very young Bryan Robson who had made his debut a few months earlier. The really odd thing was how badly our performances deteriorated after this tournament. Having qualified easily and played really well just before it, we were awful in the subsequent qualifiers for the 1982 WC and were lucky to make it through them.

 

[BoyBrumby]

9. J) Euro 2000 - group stage. Group stage (3rd Group A): Portugal L2-3, Germany W1-0, Romania L2-3

The win over Germany keeps it safe of the relegation zone, but there's no real excuse for how badly this England side lagged behind every other one from '96-'06. The Romania game especially was arguably their worst tournament performance of the last 30 years, Romania were a very, very weak side to go out to.

Not an excuse, but having Keegan as manager is probably not unconnected to it being the aberrative smeller amongst the largely creditable efforts from 96-06.