England's best/worst since 66 and all that

[wpdavid]

Not an excuse, but having Keegan as manager is probably not unconnected to it being the aberrative smeller amongst the largely creditable efforts from 96-06.

I think so. KK's said that he was out of his depth, and I see no reason to disagree.

 

[grecian]

We were a bit lucky against Belgium, in that it was the last minute of injury time in '90, but I hope there's no suggesting we wer lucky against Cameroon, if you want to rewatch a match to see how it was over the hype of the Plucky unlucky Cameroons, that is one to do. They were lovely coming forward, but their one tactic in defence was to scythe people down, not at all surprising our last two goals were pens, they didn't let us get near the penalty area otherwise. Deeply cynical dressed as romance, bit Like Wimbledons Fa Cup win. We were a lot luckier in 96 going past Spain were we were seriously second best, and the performances against Scotland and Switzerland were dog-turd, apart from one Gazza moment, who was frankly about 20% of the player he was in '90. Also got to put home advantage into it.

We were the better team in the semi's by a fair bit, and width of posts stopped us from going through, their goal was a crap deflection. Drawing against that Eire side, and the reigning European Champions (gullit, van Basten, Rijkard, Koeman et al) were not bad either. Not sure how losing 2 matches in 4 one against an alright, but nothing more Portugal side can compare, even if they were fun.

By far the best for me by miles, then 2002 Wc, then Euros 96.

 

[Furball]

Best teams I have seen are 1990 and 1996 and they are my favourite tournaments because of that. I thought the 2018 team was lucky with the draw as whenever we played a half decent side we were soundly beaten. Everything else bar 98 has been meh, and 98 was probably the biggest frustration as we had a very good squad and went out because of a stupid decision by a youngster and a crap refereeing decision. Not saying we would have won it but we would have given it a go which most of our other sides never do/did.

Not really any different to 1990 then is it?

 

[Furball]

13. N) 2010 World Cup - second round. Group stage (2nd Group C): USA D1-1, Algeria D0-0, Slovenia W1-0; second round: Germany L1-4

They got out of the group stage before losing to a truly memorably side, but even so, it really has to be this one doesn't it? The bird perched on the Algerian crossbar, a blatantly unfit Rooney giving the fans a mouthful after his latest shocker of a performance, conceding a goal straight from a goal kick 5 minutes into their first knockout game. This was peak toxic-England-football, a squad with some absolute throbbers and a whopper of a manager, built up by the media only to be mercilessly abused when they failed miserably to get anywhere near their expectations. It was really, really funny.

The loss to Germany was made all the funnier by the pre-match pundits confidently predicting an England win on the basis that none of Germany's players would get in the England side. Possibly the all time great English punditry moment.

 

[grecian]

Not really any different to 1990 then is it?

Um no, because Eire, and Netherlands didn't beat us soundly, nor did Germany, so as specious Jocko points go, well done 10/10 for whatever you do.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I quite enjoyed the 86 World Cup at times at the time. The first game we lost to Portugal but didn't play badly. The Morocco game was dire but thanks to injuries and sendings off we stumbled across an effective formation. The 3-0 wins over Poland and Paraguay were great (though that might in part be due to the fact that it was the first time I'd seen England win a World Cup knock out game). We were far too cagey against Argentina but it took two freak goals from Maradona to win the match. Obviously nothing spectacular or vintage about it but I enjoyed it at the time.

 

[wpdavid]

I quite enjoyed the 86 World Cup at times at the time. The first game we lost to Portugal but didn't play badly. The Morocco game was dire but thanks to injuries and sendings off we stumbled across an effective formation. The 3-0 wins over Poland and Paraguay were great (though that might in part be due to the fact that it was the first time I'd seen England win a World Cup knock out game). We were far too cagey against Argentina but it took two freak goals from Maradona to win the match. Obviously nothing spectacular or vintage about it but I enjoyed it at the time.

I thought we played really well in those two 3-0 wins too, especially the Paraguay match. And you're probably right about the Argentina match too, not that Hodge and Shilton helped much with that first goal. I do remember being dumbfounded to see a guy who I originally watched as a reserve right back to Paul Hinshelwood at Crystal Palace playing in England's central defence in a world cup, but Terry Fenwick may have found that odd too.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I'm always surprised that anyone places blame on Shilton for the "Hand of God" goal. He was in a reasonable position to punch the ball clear based on Maradona's ability to head the ball. He couldn't have been expected to predict him gaining a foot in height.

 

[wpdavid]

I'm always surprised that anyone places blame on Shilton for the "Hand of God" goal. He was in a reasonable position to punch the ball clear based on Maradona's ability to head the ball. He couldn't have been expected to predict him gaining a foot in height.

.
One for the agree to differ pile. Although, to be fair, he wouldn't have anticipated Hodge's through ball and thereafter it all happened very quickly. That match did also include one of the best pieces of defending ever; the Argentine who somehow cleared Barnes' second cross from under his own cross bar when Lineker could almost have blown it into the goal. I reckon we'd have taken them in extra time.

 

[Howe_zat]

This was peak toxic-England-football, a squad with some absolute throbbers and a whopper of a manager, built up by the media only to be mercilessly abused when they failed miserably to get anywhere near their expectations.

Jesus this hits the mark. I had been slowly cooling off football for the preceding decade but this tournament had me leave it for years. If it weren’t for Leicester City I’d never have watched another game

 

[sledger]

English footballing failures are a subject very close to my heart, so I'll do it for the ones of my lifetime.

1. H) Euro 1996 - semi finalists. Group stage (1st Group A): Switzerland D1-1, Scotland W2-0, Netherlands W4-1; quarter-final: Spain D0-0 (AET), won 4-2 on pens; semi-final: Germany D1-1 (AET), lost 6-5 on pens.

An ongoing theme is that the difference between the best and worst tournaments isn't actually that big - there were some very average performances and a big stroke of luck in the quarters against Spain. But beating the Netherlands 4-1 is easily their best result at a post-1990 tournament, and they definitely shaded the semi-final against Germany.

2. R) 2018 World Cup - 4th place. Group stage (2nd Group G): Tunisia W2-1, Panama W6-1, Belgium L0-1; second round: Columbia D1-1 (AET), won 4-3 on pens; quarter-final: Sweden W2-0; semi-final: Croatia L1-2 (AET); third place play off: Belgium L0-2

They didn't beat anyone good, but at the time I thought they were kind of underrated, which had never come close to happening before. They played some decent stuff.


3. L) Euro 2004 -quarter finalists. Group stage (2nd Group B): France L1-2, Switzerland W3-0, Croatia W4-2; quarter-final: Portugal D2-2 (AET), lost 6-5 on pens

Maybe a little controversial to have it above 1990, but I watched a bit of this recently and England were a lot better than I remembered. A narrow late loss to France in a game where they were the better team, then two crushing wins where they played great attacking football. The Rooney injury was a killer, but even with that they could easily have gone through. For all the talk now of tactical failings the team with a Scholes LM+Lampard+Gerrard midfield was at least as good as the 2018 side imo, if a lot less likeable.

4. F) 1990 World Cup - 4th place. Group stage (1st Group F): Eire D1-1, Netherlands D0-0, Egypt W1-0; second round: Belgium W1-0 (AET); quarter-final: Cameroon W3-2 (AET); semi-final: West Germany D1-1 (AET), lost 4-3 on pens; third place play off: Italy L1-2

Granted I was only a few months old at the time, but I'm struck by how deeply unimpressive those results are in contrast to the memory of the tournament, and the highlights suggest a lot of luck was involved in going as far as they did.

5. K) 2002 World Cup - quarter finalists. Group stage (2nd Group F): Sweden D1-1, Argentina W1-0, Nigeria D0-0; second round: Denmark W3-0; quarter-final: Brazil L1-2

Hard one to evaluate really. The performances were a bit functional, but they were the second-best team in the tournament and went out to the clear best team. I guess the last half-hour against Brazil's ten men was so anti-climactic that a lot of England fans found it hard to feel positive about.

6. I) 1998 World Cup - second round. Group stage (2nd Group G): Tunisia W2-0, Romania L1-2, Colombia W2-0; second round: Argentina D2-2 (AET), lost 4-3 on pens

England were decent enough in 98, but in contrast to 2004, I don't think they would have gone much further if they'd got past Argentina, who were clearly weaker than the Holland, Brazil, and France sides they'd have met in later rounds.

7. M) 2006 World Cup - quarter finalists. Group stage (1st Group B): Paraguay W1-0, Trinidad & Tobago W2-0, Sweden D2-2; second round: Ecuador W1-0; quarter-final: Portugal D0-0 (AET), lost 3-1 on pens

Easily the worst of the Sven-era tournaments, and the one that colours the memory of his whole reign. The football was turgid, the team and media were at their most obnoxious. England winning any tournament would be a travesty, but this might be the one I'd have least wanted England to win.

8.
O) Euro 2012 - quarter finalists. Group stage (1st Group D): France D1-1, Sweden W3-2, Ukraine W1-0; quarter final: Italy D0-0 (AET), lost 4-2 on pens

Funny because on paper this one doesn't look too bad, but Hodgson acted like he'd given up before they'd even arrived, and for some reason - trauma from 2010 maybe? - the media just sort of accepted it.

A stand-out memory of the tournament is Mark Lawrenson being a complete dick on commentary in the QF, bagging everyone constantly like a 13-year-old girl on a family holiday. I wonder if it wouldn't have felt so pathetic if it had been Barry Davies with no co-comm.

9. J) Euro 2000 - group stage. Group stage (3rd Group A): Portugal L2-3, Germany W1-0, Romania L2-3

The win over Germany keeps it safe of the relegation zone, but there's no real excuse for how badly this England side lagged behind every other one from '96-'06. The Romania game especially was arguably their worst tournament performance of the last 30 years, Romania were a very, very weak side to go out to.

10. G) Euro 1992 - group stage. Group stage (4th Group 2): Denmark D0-0, France D0-0, Sweden L1-2

Into the real smellers now, this one I have no memory or knowledge of, but the collective decision to completely pretend it never happened seems understandable.

11. Q) Euro 2016 - second round. Group stage (2nd Group B): Russia D1-1, Wales W2-1, Slovakia D0-0; second round: Iceland L1-2

Strange that 2014 was met with "ehh, what can you do with such **** players" but after this one Hodgson got the full English abuse. Despite Hodgson constantly talking them down, England had a decent squad of players that a better manager could have got something out of. But in their defence, Iceland were a perfectly good side, and the media had no right to expect England to roll them over.

12.
P) 2014 World Cup - group stage. Group stage (4th Group D): Italy L1-2, Uruguay L1-2, Costa Rica D0-0

They had a tough draw, and some might put it higher because they didn't exactly embarrass themselves. But there's just no redeeming feature about this one. Hodgson convinced everyone that a fine-but-not-amazing squad was the absolute pits, which meant he somehow escaped the blame when a series of tactical blunders caused them to bomb out.

13. N) 2010 World Cup - second round. Group stage (2nd Group C): USA D1-1, Algeria D0-0, Slovenia W1-0; second round: Germany L1-4

They got out of the group stage before losing to a truly memorably side, but even so, it really has to be this one doesn't it? The bird perched on the Algerian crossbar, a blatantly unfit Rooney giving the fans a mouthful after his latest shocker of a performance, conceding a goal straight from a goal kick 5 minutes into their first knockout game. This was peak toxic-England-football, a squad with some absolute throbbers and a whopper of a manager, built up by the media only to be mercilessly abused when they failed miserably to get anywhere near their expectations. It was really, really funny.

Haha great post this. Almost Brumby-esque in places.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

can't follow up UC's post but anyway I thought this was about the best 11 you could amass from that time.

No 1 is obviously 1994 from this correspondent (yes actually i did like that), but:

the good
A 1970; wasn't it 3-4? Anyway good tournament, memorial quarterfinal, ran into two very good teams.
M 2006 good tournament, no real slipups, Portuguese *********ry sucks
K 2002 losing to Brazil, fair enough, sort of thing you do at world cups.
R 2018 can't rank this tournament higher when you lose twice to a nation who supposedly have no one famous
F 1990 should have lost to Cameroon
E 1980 group stage was better than it sounds when it's top 8

the mediocre
H 1996 some good matches but ultimately came up short against a hardly vintage German XI
I 1998 showed potential but losing to Romania (even a Hagi-one) meant the tough draw was earned
C 1982; weird rule system probably didn't help but getting knocked out unbeaten is taking the piss 2019-style
L 2004 mercurial
D 1986 only really got revenge for Poland '73 and apart from that fairly grim, lost to the first decent team they faced.

the ugly
P 2014 at least this was a proper group of death unlike the other lolzy ones here
N 2010 lolz Robbie Green
J 2000 lolz Phil Neville
G 1992 lolz
E 1988 lolz Ireland
Q 2016 lolz Iceland

 

[vcs]

Being generous to the 2006 effort. Football was eye-gougingly bad and they lost to the first half-decent team they faced, who weren't even all that good.

 

[Howe_zat]

Did anyone else have this?

I read the **** out of it. I remember a lot of adults getting sick of the kid me asking them if they knew the score in the 1962 final because I did, and could tell them if they didn't, and also if they did.

 

[weeman27bob]

Did anyone else have this?



I read the **** out of it. I remember a lot of adults getting sick of the kid me asking them if they knew the score in the 1962 final because I did, and could tell them if they didn't, and also if they did.

What a throwback.

Must have spent hours reading that.

 

[wpdavid]

Did anyone else have this?
I read the **** out of it. I remember a lot of adults getting sick of the kid me asking them if they knew the score in the 1962 final because I did, and could tell them if they didn't, and also if they did.

Nope, but it sounds a great read. However, I did have this.

 

[wpdavid]

can't follow up UC's post but anyway I thought this was about the best 11 you could amass from that time.

No 1 is obviously 1994 from this correspondent (yes actually i did like that), but:

the good
A 1970; wasn't it 3-4? Anyway good tournament, memorial quarterfinal, ran into two very good teams.
M 2006 good tournament, no real slipups, Portuguese *********ry sucks
K 2002 losing to Brazil, fair enough, sort of thing you do at world cups.
R 2018 can't rank this tournament higher when you lose twice to a nation who supposedly have no one famous
F 1990 should have lost to Cameroon
E 1980 group stage was better than it sounds when it's top 8

1970's a bit over-rated, imo. Fair enough losing to Brazil, especially only 0-1 against that Brazil side. Losing to West Germany wouldn't a disgrace apart from the fact that we were 2-0 up before going down 2-3. I've read a lot of people say that our 1970 side was actually better than our 1966 side and it's taken me this long to work out why it wasn't. In 1966, Bobby Charlton was still at the peak of his powers, whereas in 1970 he was noticeably not and nobody was surprised when he retired from international football afterwards. I know that's only one player, but the having an ATG playing at his best did make that much of a difference. Other than that, you couldn't really separate the sides.

Fair point about 1980 btw, especially when only one team progressed from each group of four. Not that it justifies whatever Phil Neal though he was trying to do in the first two games.

 

[grecian]

Obvious couldn't disagree more with MG's appraisal of the top ones, that Cameroon point is wrong as pointed out by me, but I can't beat the myth of the "story" rather than reality.

Look 2002 was fine, but you can't ignore we were up against 10 men for a massive part of that quarter final, no matter how losing to Brazil is cool, and we were only on that side of the draw because we didn't even seem to try to beat Nigeria in the final group match, which at the time seemed insanity with the way the Tournament looked..

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Obvious couldn't disagree more with Vime's appraisal of the top ones

it was a fairly trash list off the top of my head tbf, UC has fairly comfortably trashed the 2006 assessment too

would like you to not use my former username in future tho there's a reason it changed

 

[grecian]

it was a fairly trash list off the top of my head tbf, UC has fairly comfortably trashed the 2006 assessment too

would like you to not use my former username in future tho there's a reason it changed

okey-doke Magrat, thought it was just an affectation, didn't know there was a reason for it.