Dale Steyn vs Allan Donald vs Shaun Pollock

[Kirkut]

Steyn averaged against an ordinary England team, what Donald did vs an atg Australian team. How is Steyn a level above?? Similar averages and wpm. Steyn the better SR but Donalds SR was also phenomenal. And Donald was intimidating as F. Donald was better overseas as well..... Nope sorry not a level above.

Donald was a relatively one dimensional bowler who relied too much on pace. Which is why once Donald was bowling in 83-85 mph post 2000, he wasn't as threatening as he used to be when he would average at 90-91 mph during his prime. Compare that with Steyn who generated late outswing at 83 mph and took 6/8 against Pakistan, he didn't need to bowl very fast at all.

Besides, Donald bowled to the ATG Aussie side in early 2000s and Gilchrist tonked him all over the park. Australia were good in 1990s but not yet ATG which they became after 1999 World Cup.

 

[Red]

Donald was a relatively one dimensional bowler who relied too much on pace. Which is why once Donald was bowling in 83-85 mph post 2000, he wasn't as threatening as he used to be when he would average at 90-91 mph during his prime. Compare that with Steyn who generated late outswing at 83 mph and took 6/8 against Pakistan, he didn't need to bowl very fast at all.

Besides, Donald bowled to the ATG Aussie side in early 2000s and Gilchrist tonked him all over the park. Australia were good in 1990s but not yet ATG which they became after 1999 World Cup.

Donald was everything Brett Lee should have been but never managed to be.

 

[honestbharani]

The arrival of Gilchrist was really the tipping point IMO of that Aussie side going from very good to great and then to ATG level.

 

[Dendarii]

Fully all-rounder SA side I thought about recently; pretty strong:

1. EJ Barlow / o
2. TL Goddard o /
3. J Kallis / o
4. AB de Villiers / +
5. GA Faulkner / o
6. AW Nourse / o
7. CEB Rice / o
8. MJ Procter o /
9. SM Pollock o /
10. VD Philander o /
11. PM Pollock o /

McMillan instead of Peter Pollock gives you a better batsman. And you could have Andrew Hall if you wanted a keeper who could be genuine bowling option.

 

[Jack1]

Donald

 

[Slifer]

Donald was a relatively one dimensional bowler who relied too much on pace. Which is why once Donald was bowling in 83-85 mph post 2000, he wasn't as threatening as he used to be when he would average at 90-91 mph during his prime. Compare that with Steyn who generated late outswing at 83 mph and took 6/8 against Pakistan, he didn't need to bowl very fast at all.

Besides, Donald bowled to the ATG Aussie side in early 2000s and Gilchrist tonked him all over the park. Australia were good in 1990s but not yet ATG which they became after 1999 World Cup.

By 2000, Donald was done. Even lara took Donald apart in the WC in 2003. Had Gilchrist and co faced prime Donald circa mid 90s, they would've been owned. Case in point, when Hayden faced Donald in 97, although Donald never took his wicket, he was uncomfortable as hell. Fast forward to 02 and he's putting Donald to the sword.

 

[pardus]

Donald was a relatively one dimensional bowler who relied too much on pace. Which is why once Donald was bowling in 83-85 mph post 2000, he wasn't as threatening as he used to be when he would average at 90-91 mph during his prime. Compare that with Steyn who generated late outswing at 83 mph and took 6/8 against Pakistan, he didn't need to bowl very fast at all.

Besides, Donald bowled to the ATG Aussie side in early 2000s and Gilchrist tonked him all over the park. Australia were good in 1990s but not yet ATG which they became after 1999 World Cup.

Donald was done by 2001 when he played Gilchrist. Those 2001-2002 series are really poor examples to make a case on him for failing against ATG Australia.
Those two series against Aus were also the final 2 Test series of Donald's career and he didn't even play those series completely.
Yes, he was a one-dimensional bowler, but then his pace is part of the deal. For several years he was just as effective, if not more, as bowlers with more variety.

 

[Kirkut]

By 2000, Donald was done. Even lara took Donald apart in the WC in 2003. Had Gilchrist and co faced prime Donald circa mid 90s, they would've been owned. Case in point, when Hayden faced Donald in 97, although Donald never took his wicket, he was uncomfortable as hell. Fast forward to 02 and he's putting Donald to the sword.

Donald was done by 2001 when he played Gilchrist. Those 2001-2002 series are really poor examples to make a case on him for failing against ATG Australia.
Those two series against Aus were also the final 2 Test series of Donald's career and he didn't even play those series completely.
Yes, he was a one-dimensional bowler, but then his pace is part of the deal. For several years he was just as effective, if not more, as bowlers with more variety.

One area where Donald probably had an advantage over Steyn is that he bowled to better quality of batsmen who had the ability to bat for days. But then Donald vs attacking Tendulkar of 1996 and Steyn vs a mature Tendulkar of 2010 would be tricky to compare.
Steyn could crank up his speed to 155 kph in a test match if he wanted to and he did bowl such spells to Clarke and Hussey, but he found his niche in bowling at around 85 mph with late outswing.

Anyways, I mentioned it earlier, I prefer watching Donald and I don't think much about stats. His bowling in 1992 World Cup was a treat to eyes.

 

[pardus]

One area where Donald probably had an advantage over Steyn is that he bowled to better quality of batsmen who had the ability to bat for days. But then Donald vs attacking Tendulkar of 1996 and Steyn vs a mature Tendulkar of 2010 would be tricky to compare.
Steyn could crank up his speed to 155 kph in a test match if he wanted to and he did bowl such spells to Clarke and Hussey, but he found his niche in bowling at around 85 mph with late outswing.

Anyways, I mentioned it earlier, I prefer watching Donald and I don't think much about stats. His bowling in 1992 World Cup was a treat to eyes.

Personally I don't like Donald much (abused the batsman too much for my liking). In fact, in the mid-90s, I would have childish hopes of some young Richards or Richie-Richardson
type batsman turning up and putting this loudmouth in his place in Test cricket.

I am just trying to be objective here. I have to grudgingly admit that he was really good.

I was just talking about you taking those 2 series of Donald as representative examples. Donald was pretty much done at that point, and somehow hung around just to participate in
the 2003 Home World Cup in South Africa (a historic event from South African cricket perspective - first CWC to be hosted by South Africa). Overall, Donald's career stats aren't inferior
to Steyn's (other than Steyn taking more wickets by playing more matches). You exclude Donald's final 2 Test series (both against Australia), Donald's average against Aus becomes 27
and his average against Aus in Aus becomes an even more impressive 23.

Talking about relying only on pace, it makes me wonder though, how many recent fast bowlers were there in the game, who started as genuine express fast bowlers (and were successful),
and as years went on and as their average pace reduced, they were still just as successful based on their skill and guile. Lillee & Akram are the first names that come to my mind.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Talking about relying only on pace, it makes me wonder though, how many recent fast bowlers were there in the game, who started as genuine express fast bowlers (and were successful),
and as years went on and as their average pace reduced, they were still just as successful based on their skill and guile. Lillee & Akram are the first names that come to my mind.

Kemar Roach a good current example, although I would say his pace dropped sharply rather than gradually when he first crocked his shoulder

 

[Kirkut]

Personally I don't like Donald much (abused the batsman too much for my liking). In fact, in the mid-90s, I would have childish hopes of some young Richards or Richie-Richardson
type batsman turning up and putting this loudmouth in his place in Test cricket.

I am just trying to be objective here. I have to grudgingly admit that he was really good.

I was just talking about you taking those 2 series of Donald as representative examples. Donald was pretty much done at that point, and somehow hung around just to participate in
the 2003 Home World Cup in South Africa (a historic event from South African cricket perspective - first CWC to be hosted by South Africa). Overall, Donald's career stats aren't inferior
to Steyn's (other than Steyn taking more wickets by playing more matches). You exclude Donald's final 2 Test series (both against Australia), Donald's average against Aus becomes 27
and his average against Aus in Aus becomes an even more impressive 23.

Talking about relying only on pace, it makes me wonder though, how many recent fast bowlers were there in the game, who started as genuine express fast bowlers (and were successful),
and as years went on and as their average pace reduced, they were still just as successful based on their skill and guile. Lillee & Akram are the first names that come to my mind.

Marshall is an example here. He cut down his pace after 1985 and became an even better bowler, you have to watch his spell at Guyana vs Aus in 1991 to witness his amazing understanding of the game.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

From memory he doesn't drink anyway

 

[subshakerz]

Personally I don't like Donald much (abused the batsman too much for my liking). In fact, in the mid-90s, I would have childish hopes of some young Richards or Richie-Richardson
type batsman turning up and putting this loudmouth in his place in Test cricket.

I am just trying to be objective here. I have to grudgingly admit that he was really good.

I was just talking about you taking those 2 series of Donald as representative examples. Donald was pretty much done at that point, and somehow hung around just to participate in
the 2003 Home World Cup in South Africa (a historic event from South African cricket perspective - first CWC to be hosted by South Africa). Overall, Donald's career stats aren't inferior
to Steyn's (other than Steyn taking more wickets by playing more matches). You exclude Donald's final 2 Test series (both against Australia), Donald's average against Aus becomes 27
and his average against Aus in Aus becomes an even more impressive 23.

Talking about relying only on pace, it makes me wonder though, how many recent fast bowlers were there in the game, who started as genuine express fast bowlers (and were successful),
and as years went on and as their average pace reduced, they were still just as successful based on their skill and guile. Lillee & Akram are the first names that come to my mind.

Is it fair to remove those two series? Unless he was injured, I dont see why they shouldnt be used to reflect his performance. Especially if one of his critiques is that he couldnt adapt once his pace was gone.

For example, Imran Khan's stats suffered when he played 1988 onwards as a pure batsman and somewhat part-time pacer. I personally dont feel those years of 89 - 91 are representative of who Imran was as a frontline bowler from 76-88 but I think it is fair to include those in his overall numbers when assessing him.

 

[Malcolm]

IMO, its worth considering that Donald lost a good 3-4 years due to the apartheid. He was a gun bowler for Warwickshire during that time.

 

[pardus]

Is it fair to remove those two series? Unless he was injured, I dont see why they shouldnt be used to reflect his performance. Especially if one of his critiques is that he couldnt adapt once his pace was gone.

For example, Imran Khan's stats suffered when he played 1988 onwards as a pure batsman and somewhat part-time pacer. I personally dont feel those years of 89 - 91 are representative of who Imran was as a frontline bowler from 76-88 but I think it is fair to include those in his overall numbers when assessing him.

To me, it is fair, Donald played just 3 Tests in both those Aus series combined together. He was unfit most of the time. Those 3 Tests were the final 3 Tests of his career, spread across months.
It didn't affect his career stats at all but badly affected his stats just against Aus (because of far fewer Tests played against one side). If it weren't for World Cup 2003 being held in South Africa, I
suspect Donald would have called it quits.much earlier.

Imran on the other hand played 15 Test matches from 89-91 (primarily as a middle-order batsman who bowled second change). Speaking for myself I wouldn't count Imran's final years in his bowling
either (because he played primarily as a batting all-rounder and as a captain who held together the fissiparous Pakistani team), but then Imran played a lot more Test matches than Donald did, and was
involved in a lot more series, and most importantly he bowled a lot more in those 15 Test matches than Donald did in his 3 Test matches, so it is understandable if others want to count them in Imran's
bowling figures.

 

[pardus]

IMO, its worth considering that Donald lost a good 3-4 years due to the apartheid. He was a gun bowler for Warwickshire during that time.

He was over 26 years old when he was playing in his second Test match. I'd say he lost at least 4 years. He was recently voted as Warwickshire's greatest overseas player (even over Lara).

 

[Migara]

10 is an arbitrary number though. Garner over Akram, Donald, Trueman, Imran and Lillee is a very exclusively CW opinion.

does not belong there.

 

[Tom Flint]

Personally I don't like Donald much (abused the batsman too much for my liking). In fact, in the mid-90s, I would have childish hopes of some young Richards or Richie-Richardson
type batsman turning up and putting this loudmouth in his place in Test cricket.

I am just trying to be objective here. I have to grudgingly admit that he was really good.

I was just talking about you taking those 2 series of Donald as representative examples. Donald was pretty much done at that point, and somehow hung around just to participate in
the 2003 Home World Cup in South Africa (a historic event from South African cricket perspective - first CWC to be hosted by South Africa). Overall, Donald's career stats aren't inferior
to Steyn's (other than Steyn taking more wickets by playing more matches). You exclude Donald's final 2 Test series (both against Australia), Donald's average against Aus becomes 27
and his average against Aus in Aus becomes an even more impressive 23.

Talking about relying only on pace, it makes me wonder though, how many recent fast bowlers were there in the game, who started as genuine express fast bowlers (and were successful),
and as years went on and as their average pace reduced, they were still just as successful based on their skill and guile. Lillee & Akram are the first names that come to my mind.

Fidel Edwards is a completely different bowler now at Hampshire than he was 10 years ago. I'd say he could have still done a good job for WI these last few years. Although their attack now is the best it had been for 20 years

 

[Arachnodouche]

Only ever be the one White Lightning! And for those saying he didn't have outswing, Donald could make it go like a banana, albeit somewhat erratically, when he first appeared on the international stage. Then by the mid-90s he had streamlined his action to a thing of beauty (the very greatest of all bowling actions IMO) which obviously helped his control without sacrificing any speed.

 

[h_hurricane]

The 2 unreal spectacular deliveries I have watched are Donald dismissing Tendulkar in 1996-97(in the first test match in SA) and Atherton a few years later(1999-00 I think). They say "A thing of beauty is a joy for ever" and one could watch that bowling action all day, except when you are at the receiving end.

Donald was also a hot head, a lovable hot head in fact. The moment you see that red face, you enjoy it. You realize he has lost it but he kind of looked charming in that. Also felt really bad for him after the 1999 WC SF.

Another favorite Donald clip for me was him bowling to Atherton in 1998 series in England. Test cricket at its very best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JojnoSO4MDc