Dale Steyn vs Allan Donald vs Shaun Pollock

[Pap Finn Keighl]

People are underestimating Wasim.. He was a champion bowler. He sort of underachieved despite his numbers (not often you say that for a bloke who averaged 23 and took 400+ wickets). If Pakistan had a half-decent slip-cordon, I feel confident his average would been lower by 2 runs. Go on YT and look any random Wasim video. It always starts with someone dropping a catch in the slip. It almost seems staged.

Akram averaged less than 4 wicket per match.. So he is not a premium ATG like Ambrose. One of CW's favorite argument against Akram.
Fact is Akram's Wicket per innings is better than Ambrose despite playing 18 years compared to 13 years of Ambrose.

Dropped catches, leaked boundaries.. Nah.. Its all part of the game. Akram is inferior to others.
Akram was the most skilful, for the naked eyes he was indisputably greatest.
Nah.. Only Stats matter.
Ask his contemporaries.. Nah..Opinions are worthless.. Stats don't lie

Why do you think Viv was the best?
Ask his contemporaries... You have to watch him to know how special he was..
No one had that easiness.. Bowlers feared him..

Oh.. I see

 

[Chrish]

I am too young to have seen Marshall but guys like Mcgrath, Donald, Steyn all of them had a quality slip-cordon dedicated to them, while Pakistani bowlers had to put up with consistent garbage.

I wouldn't pick Wasim as top 5 myself but his inclusion in such lists shouldn't be controversial..

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

In this video alone, 6 wickets and few runs

Remember just 6 more test wickets to Akram's record, makes his Wicket per innings better than McGrath's.

 

[kyear2]

Akram averaged less than 4 wicket per match.. So he is not a premium ATG like Ambrose. One of CW's favorite argument against Akram.
Fact is Akram's Wicket per innings is better than Ambrose despite playing 18 years compared to 13 years of Ambrose.

Dropped catches, leaked boundaries.. Nah.. Its all part of the game. Akram is inferior to others.
Akram was the most skilful, for the naked eyes he was indisputably greatest.
Nah.. Only Stats matter.
Ask his contemporaries.. Nah..Opinions are worthless.. Stats don't lie

Why do you think Viv was the best?
Ask his contemporaries... You have to watch him to know how special he was..
No one had that easiness.. Bowlers feared him..

Oh.. I see

I've seen Marshall, Akram, McGrath, Steyn, Ambrose and know enough about Hadlee. And I don't claim that Akram wasn't great, but I wouldn't chose him over any of the above named. Don't think I would choose him over Donald either.

And yes, cordons do matter, probably more to me than most but that is part of the game and every ATG had their own challenges to combat.

For me there was a clear top 4
Marshall
Steyn - Mcgrath
Hadlee

Hadlee makes my ATG team over McGrath purely because of how close and similar to McGrath he was and he came with the advantage of not being a bunny with the bat.


With regards to Viv, it just wasn't the myth of the man, but because at his best he was also statistically the best and he brought something different to the game. For a good while he averaged over 60, but sadly he had a precipitous fall as his eyes and reflexes went. And even IVA is not in my top 5 bats either.

And again, not saying Wasim isn't great. He is top 10 all time and his left handedness does work in his favor with the variety. But he can't crack my top 4 and for me isn't in the (3 man) argument for best ever.

 

[kyear2]

In this video alone, 6 wickets and few runs

Remember just 6 more test wickets to Akram's record, makes his Wicket per innings better than McGrath's.

Couple of points, why was Sohail in the slips so often.
Seriously, I can find drops by everyone, but yes I acknowledge that Pakistan never had the cordons of the great Windies, Aussie or SA teams. But a lot of that was by design. I remember Hooper holding on to his spot partly because of potential and partly due to his brilliance in the slips.
And thus as I have long campaigned and been argued against that have a strong cordon and specifically excelllent 2nd slip (and safe 1st) is just (or almost) as important as a batsman who can bowl or a bowler who can bat. All are required for a strong team. The Hammond's, Chappell's, Kallis's, Sobers, Clarke's etc.
But I digress and that's an argument for another day.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I've seen Marshall, Akram, McGrath, Steyn, Ambrose and know enough about Hadlee. And I don't claim that Akram wasn't great, but I wouldn't chose him over any of the above named. Don't think I would choose him over Donald either.

And yes, cordons do matter, probably more to me than most but that is part of the game and every ATG had their own challenges to combat.

For me there was a clear top 4
Marshall
Steyn - Mcgrath
Hadlee

Hadlee makes my ATG team over McGrath purely because of how close and similar to McGrath he was and he came with the advantage of not being a bunny with the bat.


With regards to Viv, it just wasn't the myth of the man, but because at his best he was also statistically the best and he brought something different to the game. For a good while he averaged over 60, but sadly he had a precipitous fall as his eyes and reflexes went. And even IVA is not in my top 5 bats either.

And again, not saying Wasim isn't great. He is top 10 all time and his left handedness does work in his favor with the variety. But he can't crack my top 4 and for me isn't in the (3 man) argument for best ever.

//but that is part of the game and every ATG had their own challenges to combat.//

How convenient

 

[kyear2]

//but that is part of the game and every ATG had their own challenges to combat.//

How convenient

Don't get what's convenient about it, but fine.

 

[subshakerz]

Without looking at numbers, Steyn looked more thrashable. He did produce more math-winning performances out of nowhere at there were periods where he looked vulnerable to batsmen going after him.

Donald on the other hand from memory, dominated batsmen more ie. he usually didn’t go for too many runs. And on rare occasions when batsmen did go after him, he usually got them out (his battles with Lara and Tendulkar come to mind). He also relied more on hostile accurate short-pitch bowling which I like more. Pace like fire!

Donald slightly edges this one. Also amazing odi bowler.

The big hole in Donald's record is his lack of match-winning performances abroad. By match-winning, I mean decisively setting up or sealing a victory through his bowling. Aside from a couple of forgotten tests in England, he didn't really win matches in other countries. In South Africa's major victores of the 90s in the subcontinent, he was largely a supporting act. Even in England in 98, at his peak, he failed to seal two critical tests in Old Trafford and Trent Bridge that were basically set up for him, and South Africa lost that series (also due to bad umpiring and field, but still).

That is not to say he didnt bowl well in other tests abroad or that his overall figures are not pretty. But pretty much every ATG, from Steyn, Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath, have such goldstar performances in at least 3-4 countries over their career. Thats what sets them apart. Steyn, as mentioned, has done so in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Australia, India, England and West Indies. Hadlee did it in India, England, Australia and Sri Lanka. Marshall did it in Pakistan, India, England, New Zealand and Australia. McGrath did it in England, West Indies, India and South Africa.

Does Donald have anything in his resume to compare to McGrath at Lords in 05, Marshall in Kanpur in 83, Hadlee in Brisbane in 85 or Steyn in Nagpur in 2010? Steyn always put his hand up in the big moments away from home, which is why he is a no-brainer for me.

 

[Gob]

Tests - Steyn> Donald > Pollock

ODIs - Pollock > Donald >> Steyn

 

[Bolo.]

The big hole in Donald's record is his lack of match-winning performances abroad. By match-winning, I mean decisively setting up or sealing a victory through his bowling. Aside from a couple of forgotten tests in England, he didn't really win matches in other countries. In South Africa's major victores of the 90s in the subcontinent, he was largely a supporting act. Even in England in 98, at his peak, he failed to seal two critical tests in Old Trafford and Trent Bridge that were basically set up for him, and South Africa lost that series (also due to bad umpiring and field, but still).

That is not to say he didnt bowl well in other tests abroad or that his overall figures are not pretty. But pretty much every ATG, from Steyn, Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath, have such goldstar performances in at least 3-4 countries over their career. Thats what sets them apart. Steyn, as mentioned, has done so in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Australia, India, England and West Indies. Hadlee did it in India, England, Australia and Sri Lanka. Marshall did it in Pakistan, India, England, New Zealand and Australia. McGrath did it in England, West Indies, India and South Africa.

Does Donald have anything in his resume to compare to McGrath at Lords in 05, Marshall in Kanpur in 83, Hadlee in Brisbane in 85 or Steyn in Nagpur in 2010? Steyn always put his hand up in the big moments away from home, which is why he is a no-brainer for me.

I barely remember any of Donalds matchwinning spells, home or away, so cant argue against this. I do remember him having a ton of matchwinning spells though, and his home/away stats are the same, so this is surprising if correct.

Not expecting him to compare to Steyn though. Steyn is in his own tier compared to bowlers from since Donalds debut in this regard.

 

[stephen]

Personally I think that Steyn was superior to Donald in tests. I did think Donald's stats flatter him a little by comparison to Steyn, but that's mainly due to their eras. Steyn, Donald and Pollock would be my South African attack since readmission, with Philander 12th man, to be brought in over Pollock on helpful decks.

 

[ankitj]

I barely remember any of Donalds matchwinning spells, home or away, so cant argue against this.

He routed India in Durban in 1996 which included the famous Tendulkar clean bowled.

 

[Coronis]

I wouldn't pick Wasim as top 5 myself but his inclusion in such lists shouldn't be controversial..

Far from it. Of course everyone has their own opinion and certainly on here sometimes if you don’t agree with the overall site consensus you are clearly wrong. Personally I don’t think you’d lose that much picking between any of the top 10-15 fast bowlers of all time, the same might even be said about the batsmen (with one exception). I think the gaps between them are definitely overexaggerated on this site.

 

[Jayro]

It has to be said Donald lost lots of his early years not playing international cricket, for a genuine fast bowler that'd been a great loss and despite of being an express pace bowler his RPO in one days was still kept in excellent shape ;that's a huge asset and great rare mix for a strike bowler who bowled with such a speed and yet kept it so tight I think he was easily the best among these three because his economy was at par with pollocks his SR was at par with steyns he had been the best of both worlds with an express pace despite of not being able to play internationally before his mid-late 20s you can only imagine how fast and more devastating he would have been earlier.

 

[Gob]

Wait I thought not bowling many memorable spells was more of a Wasim Akram thing than Alan Donald. I mean compared to other ATG fast bowlers ofcourse



This record is still amazing. Bonafide great for me

Edit - those were his away numbers btw

 

[subshakerz]

Wait I thought not bowling many memorable spells was more of a Wasim Akram thing than Alan Donald. I mean compared to other ATG fast bowlers ofcourse

View attachment 27868

This record is still amazing. Bonafide great for me

Edit - those were his away numbers btw

Yes I mentioned he has pretty numbers but the question is his actual impact. Can you remember him actually winning a game overseas? Even Wasim had a few matchwinning overseas spells.

 

[Bolo.]

Yes I mentioned he has pretty numbers but the question is his actual impact. Can you remember him actually winning a game overseas? Even Wasim had a few matchwinning overseas spells.

Only 34 away games with 12 wins, competing against excellent bowlers for wickets. His opportunity for matchwinning away performances was very limited.

He would still definitely have had some matchwinning performances, whether or not we remember them. The only match that really sticks in my mind was 7/116 vs AUS, although it was only his 3rd best in away wins, and he wasnt even the best bowler in the match.

 

[Kirkut]

I've seen Marshall, Akram, McGrath, Steyn, Ambrose and know enough about Hadlee. And I don't claim that Akram wasn't great, but I wouldn't chose him over any of the above named. Don't think I would choose him over Donald either.

And yes, cordons do matter, probably more to me than most but that is part of the game and every ATG had their own challenges to combat.

For me there was a clear top 4
Marshall
Steyn - Mcgrath
Hadlee

Hadlee makes my ATG team over McGrath purely because of how close and similar to McGrath he was and he came with the advantage of not being a bunny with the bat.


With regards to Viv, it just wasn't the myth of the man, but because at his best he was also statistically the best and he brought something different to the game. For a good while he averaged over 60, but sadly he had a precipitous fall as his eyes and reflexes went. And even IVA is not in my top 5 bats either.

And again, not saying Wasim isn't great. He is top 10 all time and his left handedness does work in his favor with the variety. But he can't crack my top 4 and for me isn't in the (3 man) argument for best ever.

Most of awesome Wasim Akram spells were in ODIs. In tests he would sometimes be a magician and in the remaining he seemed to go through motions and finish his quota of overs.

 

[subshakerz]

Wasim is a hard one to judge. He had a rather moderate early part of his career and latter part of his career, but a fairly longish peak in which he was arguably the best bowler of the world.

If we were to judge the best bowler of the 90s, Wasim would likely feature ahead of Donald and even Ambrose for me. But overall, his career numbers suffer in comparison.

 

[Gob]

Wasim is a hard one to judge. He had a rather moderate early part of his career and latter part of his career, but a fairly longish peak in which he was arguably the best bowler of the world.

If we were to judge the best bowler of the 90s, Wasim would likely feature ahead of Donald and even Ambrose for me. But overall, his career numbers suffer in comparison.

Wasim has never been rated as the number 1 by the icc rankings. Now that is not the only yardstick for greatness but most greats such as Ambrose, Steyn, McGrath etc spent great big chunks of time there and that tells something