The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[Migara]

According to this article here, Symonds got a run out in roughly 15% of ODIs. Ponting 13%. Yuvraj ahead on 16%. But the highest proportion was from Younis Khan on 17%. Rhodes had virtually identical stats to Symonds.

But this was only after the 99 world cup and only up to 2005. Jayawardene had affected the largest number of run outs in that time.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23064445/statistics-run-outs-odis

That list gives a good idea of the fielding prowess of the SL teams of mid 90s to mid 00s. Jayawardane, Atapattu, Jayasuriya, Murali and Vaas all are there. No wonder we were so successful back then.

 

[honestbharani]

That list gives a good idea of the fielding prowess of the SL teams of mid 90s to mid 00s. Jayawardane, Atapattu, Jayasuriya, Murali and Vaas all are there. No wonder we were so successful back then.

Mahanama was brilliant too.

 

[honestbharani]

have we moved on from trying to ham in symonds by pumping up his dobbers to trying to ham in symonds by noting he was a world class fielder?

just put guptill at second slip and be done with it

The sheer amount of mental gymnastics a couple here are going through to justify what is an obviously biased take is amusing to say the least.

Symonds does not cut it as a batsman, bowler or a fielder or any combination of these three to be anywhere near an ATG ODI XI. Its a simple fact that a couple of posters have such a hard time getting used to.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Sometimes the best fielders are those that are not involved in dismissals...but merely stopping runs. Building pressure.

 

[Spark]

Mentioning the most important and the least important fielders isnt cherry picking- Im just highlighting marginal utility. It goes down after the first two. I reckon that three is the magic number after which it drops most suddenly- a big proportion of balls are hit at 3 offside ring fielders early on and at 3 boundary fielders in the slog. Just a guess though

Obviously, stacking the ring early would help as RH is suggesting. But the difference between a great 5th best fielder and a good one is going to be pretty small- the ball is only going to them a handfull of times in a game, and many games there wont be an impact at all.

This guess is very wrong. On average only three positions are truly important at a given point in an ODI game? Seriously?

Backward point, cover, midwicket are vital at all stages at a game. Deep midwicket and deep square leg are important at most stages of a game, as are long-on and long-off. Again, what constitutes a great fielder in a position varies by position (at some you want great anticipation and reflexes/catching, at others you want sheer athleticism, and a strong, accurate throwing arm) but it's just amazing to me that we are actually suggesting that only three positions in a ODI game are likely to see action at any given point in time, that is just not credible.

 

[honestbharani]

Jonty himself went to the deep around the slog overs. So it shows the important positions vary with the different stages of the game.

And was always the lone guy around midwicket-ish area when the spinners or medium pacers were bowling. And it was amazing how close he would be to the batsman whenever he was inside the circle.

 

[Red]

Keeping is the most important fielding position, coming in to play on most deliveries. Surely best to have Knott in there then. If 1 great fielder who only comes into play once in a while can save 20 runs over another good fielder, then Knott should save 40-50 runs over Dhoni/Gilly at least.

No.

 

[Red]

Nah. Jonty was comfortably and easily better and was only slightly worse at throwing down the stumps. To me, in terms of anticipation and diving stops and saving runs, Jonty is unmatched. These guys are at the level below him along with Gibbs, AB etc.

There's no way of really proving any of this, as it's opinion. But I don't know how you'd say "Jonty was comfortably and easily better" that say, Ponting or Symonds. Or even Richards and Lloyd, tbh

 

[Red]

have we moved on from trying to ham in symonds by pumping up his dobbers to trying to ham in symonds by noting he was a world class fielder?

just put guptill at second slip and be done with it

Hold on, I haven't moved on. I've been hamming up all his facets for years on here!

 

[Red]

Obviously, stacking the ring early would help as RH is suggesting. But the difference between a great 5th best fielder and a good one is going to be pretty small- the ball is only going to them a handfull of times in a game, and many games there wont be an impact at all.

It's not how many times the ball goes to them. It's the impact having 3/4/5 of them in the inner ring makes. It's psychological for the batsmen, as much as anything.

 

[Red]

The sheer amount of mental gymnastics a couple here are going through to justify what is an obviously biased take is amusing to say the least.

Symonds does not cut it as a batsman, bowler or a fielder or any combination of these three to be anywhere near an ATG ODI XI. Its a simple fact that a couple of posters have such a hard time getting used to.

So suddenly you're the authority on what's acceptable in ATG teams, cos you say so. Ok.

 

[harsh.ag]

No.

Precisely.

 

[stephen]

Fielding would be rated with higher importance if there were stats to quantify it like there are for batting and bowling.

Australia tied the 99 WC semi final on the back of three pieces of fielding and almost lost it in the back of two other pieces of fielding. Waugh would never have hit his hundred to see Australia through to the semi if Gibbs hadn't dropped the catch. In the semi final, Bevan's direct hit run out was a massive game changer. Reiffel's dropped catch and Lehmann's missed run out both almost cost Australia the match. Then the final piece of calm ten pin bowling by Fleming secured the tie.

It's impossible to properly quantify how important these individual acts were, but it is possible to say that fielding was the determining factor in that world cup.

 

[Daemon]

Is anyone even saying that fielding isn’t very important. I was merely disputing TJB’s obviously incorrect assertion that a great fielder can regularly (I suppose we’ll now have to define regularly) save 20-30 runs via ground fielding alone.

 

[harsh.ag]

Fielding would be rated with higher importance if there were stats to quantify it like there are for batting and bowling.

Australia tied the 99 WC semi final on the back of three pieces of fielding and almost lost it in the back of two other pieces of fielding. Waugh would never have hit his hundred to see Australia through to the semi if Gibbs hadn't dropped the catch. In the semi final, Bevan's direct hit run out was a massive game changer. Reiffel's dropped catch and Lehmann's missed run out both almost cost Australia the match. Then the final piece of calm ten pin bowling by Fleming secured the tie.

It's impossible to properly quantify how important these individual acts were, but it is possible to say that fielding was the determining factor in that world cup.

Think this just means luck was the determining factor. Gibbs didn't drop catches, Bevan wasn't known for his run-out skills.

 

[mr_mister]

Is anyone even saying that fielding isn’t very important. I was merely disputing TJB’s obviously incorrect assertion that a great fielder can regularly (I suppose we’ll now have to define regularly) save 20-30 runs via ground fielding alone.

I guess it also needs to be defined what calibre of fielder a great fielder is being compared too

Yesterday in my club game an older, slower guy sitting at regulation square leg let like 5-6 boundaries get hit past him that a younger guy could have kept to 1 run every time

But the younger guys in my team are usually put on the boundary because in my grade every batsman slogs everything so we couldn't afford to move the field too much


Scale this up to gus logie and Courtney Walsh being in the same team and you might see similar results

 

[jimmy101]

Yesterday in my club game an older, slower guy sitting at regulation square leg let like 5-6 boundaries get hit past him that a younger guy could have kept to 1 run every time

Some blokes just don't know when to retire.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Is anyone even saying that fielding isn’t very important. I was merely disputing TJB’s obviously incorrect assertion that a great fielder can regularly (I suppose we’ll now have to define regularly) save 20-30 runs via ground fielding alone.

Great fielder can potentially save hundreds of runs and decide a game. You can't put a distinct value on it or claim that anything is "obviously wrong".

If Jonty Rhodes runs out Brian Lara for 10 and his team wins by 5 runs then we'll see how important fielding can be.

 

[Migara]

Mahanama was brilliant too.

He was par with jonty. Once some one ask, what is the difference between him and Jonty. Mahanama replied "I could field everywhere, equally well. I am not an exclusive ring fielder". He was actually implying he was better than Rhodes. He was retired by 1998, and hence may not be in the list. His specialty was catches. Runouts were for MJ and Atapattu.

 

[stephen]

Think this just means luck was the determining factor. Gibbs didn't drop catches, Bevan wasn't known for his run-out skills.

Nope. Not luck. Skill execution.