The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[harsh.ag]

Keeping is the most important fielding position, coming in to play on most deliveries. Surely best to have Knott in there then. If 1 great fielder who only comes into play once in a while can save 20 runs over another good fielder, then Knott should save 40-50 runs over Dhoni/Gilly at least.

 

[bagapath]

Random opinion. Highly debatable. but very much defendable too...

In test cricket, because of the nature of the game, the slip cordon is populated by the primary fielders. leaving the off side open, the bowlers temp the batters to drive and edge to slips. the main wicket taking strategy in this format is, therefore, very much dependent on slip catching.

In ODI cricket, because quick runs are paramount, the inner circle of fielders assumes greater importance. Not just to take catches and cut runs. But also to effect run outs with direct hits, and more importantly, create the fear of sharp run outs and reduce sharp singles (and reduce rotation of strike, drop the scoring rate) and even cause run outs out of confusion. Two gun fielders in the circle will mean a world of difference. three would be an army. I don't know how to quantify their contribution. But for the bowling attack, such protection is invaluable in building pressure and bagging wickets.

 

[honestbharani]

Jonty was outstanding at anticipating and cutting off, still think Ponting and Symonds were as good at those skills, but were better at throwing down the stumps.

Nah. Jonty was comfortably and easily better and was only slightly worse at throwing down the stumps. To me, in terms of anticipation and diving stops and saving runs, Jonty is unmatched. These guys are at the level below him along with Gibbs, AB etc.

Jonty wasn't any better than Symonds or Ponting as a complete fielder, more known for his fielding though, possibly because he wasn't as good at the other facets of the game, relatively speaking.

 

[harsh.ag]

Most runouts in international cricket (formats combined)

Steve Waugh - 48 run-outs in 493 matches
Yuvraj Singh – 46 run-outs in 371 matches
Herschelle Gibbs – 43 run-outs in 361 matches
Paul Collingwood – 35 run-outs in 300 matches

Stats from 2014 source

 

[sunilz]

Most runouts in international cricket (formats combined)

Steve Waugh - 48 run-outs in 493 matches
Yuvraj Singh – 46 run-outs in 371 matches
Herschelle Gibbs – 43 run-outs in 361 matches
Paul Collingwood – 35 run-outs in 300 matches

Stats from 2014 source

I don't think more run out per match means better fielder. Australian fielding was so good that batsmen simply refused to take single or double against them. Teams used to rely mostly on boundaries against Aus.

 

[harsh.ag]

Ponting played 375 ODIs. And the vast majority of those 80 run outs must have come in them. So, his per match stat in ODIs wouldn't be that far away from Jonty.

 

[vcs]

Most runouts in international cricket (formats combined)

Steve Waugh - 48 run-outs in 493 matches
Yuvraj Singh – 46 run-outs in 371 matches
Herschelle Gibbs – 43 run-outs in 361 matches
Paul Collingwood – 35 run-outs in 300 matches

Stats from 2014 source

Those numbers for Rhodes are stunning. Anyway, fielding is probably best judged from watching rather than stats which makes it an inherently subjective exercise. For me, he's still the best I've watched.

I'd like to see more mentions of Chris Harris among the gun fielders of his time, he was also awesome.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Random opinion. Highly debatable. but very much defendable too...

In test cricket, because of the nature of the game, the slip cordon is populated by the primary fielders. leaving the off side open, the bowlers temp the batters to drive and edge to slips. the main wicket taking strategy in this format is, therefore, very much dependent on slip catching.

In ODI cricket, because quick runs are paramount, the inner circle of fielders assumes greater importance. Not just to take catches and cut runs. But also to effect run outs with direct hits, and more importantly, create the fear of sharp run outs and reduce sharp singles (and reduce rotation of strike, drop the scoring rate) and even cause run outs out of confusion. Two gun fielders in the circle will mean a world of difference. three would be an army. I don't know how to quantify their contribution. But for the bowling attack, such protection is invaluable in building pressure and bagging wickets.

I don't see why that would be debatable. Seems pretty much common sense.

Ponting played 375 ODIs. And the vast majority of those 80 run outs must have come in them. So, his per match stat in ODIs wouldn't be that far away from Jonty.

Ponting also fielded in the slips significantly more than Jonty. You don't get too many run outs from second slip. Not that I consider "run outs per match" a particularly definitive stat regardless.

illuminating as always

 

[TheJediBrah]

Keeping is the most important fielding position, coming in to play on most deliveries. Surely best to have Knott in there then. If 1 great fielder who only comes into play once in a while can save 20 runs over another good fielder, then Knott should save 40-50 runs over Dhoni/Gilly at least.

Potentially. Do you really think Knott was that much better a keeper than those guys though? Enough to make it worth the reduction in batting strength? I don't think many would.

Definitely worth taking into consideration though.

 

[Malcolm]

Most runouts in international cricket (formats combined)

Steve Waugh - 48 run-outs in 493 matches
Yuvraj Singh – 46 run-outs in 371 matches
Herschelle Gibbs – 43 run-outs in 361 matches
Paul Collingwood – 35 run-outs in 300 matches

Stats from 2014 source

I don't think these are direct hit runouts. Also, fielding at the backward point most of his career gives him an advantage in terms of runouts/matches ratio over all round fielders like Punter, Symmo and Sanath. IMO, Jonty was a league below Ponting, Symonds, or even Gibbs and Sanath as far as direct hits are concerned.

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think these are direct hit runouts. Also, fielding at the backward point most of his career gives him an advantage in terms of runouts/matches ratio over all round fielders like Punter, Symmo and Sanath. IMO, Jonty was a league below Ponting, Symonds, or even Gibbs and Sanath as far as direct hits are concerned.

Maybe but run outs are run outs no matter how you effect them. I would rather have someone in the team who can get me wickets than just direct hits... I mean Jadeja is better than Symonds and Ponting at direct hits. Does not mean much.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's always incongrous to me hearing people talk about Sanath as a gun fielder. I only caught the end of his career and he was not very impressive by that stage, nabbed a few run outs from mid on or mid off because the batsmen underestemated him but that's about it. Makes sense for it to get harder as you get older though. I'm not that old but already I'm much less agile than I was 5-10 years ago.

I mean Jadeja is better than Symonds and Ponting at direct hits.

of course he is

 

[Flem274*]

have we moved on from trying to ham in symonds by pumping up his dobbers to trying to ham in symonds by noting he was a world class fielder?

just put guptill at second slip and be done with it

 

[Flem274*]

Fielding is more valuable in some circumstances than others. On postage stamps it's far less valuable than it is on the MCG (for example) because in the case of the latter fielders have more scope to cut down runs and get outfield catches.

i'd say it's at least equal. a cat in the field can get in front of those tracer bullets on the smaller grounds like the super spuds just can't because they lack the reflexes.

it would be a pretty miserable experience to show up at eden park with it hooping around corners and when you finally get one to pump to the short boundary, some **** like guptill or jadeja is there to ruin everything.

 

[stephen]

i'd say it's at least equal. a cat in the field can get in front of those tracer bullets on the smaller grounds like the super spuds just can't because they lack the reflexes.

it would be a pretty miserable experience to show up at eden park with it hooping around corners and when you finally get one to pump to the short boundary, some **** like guptill or jadeja is there to ruin everything.

Yeah but the same fielder is going to cut off those same runs on the MCG. And they might cut a 3 down to a 2 on the MCG, which would have been a boundary on another field.

Eden park is pretty unique in that it tends to have low scoring ODIs despite being a puny ground. There are a lot of tiny subcontinent grounds or English grounds where 380 is par. On those grounds the batsmen often just smack the ball over the rope and hit a 75m 6.

 

[Spark]

Random opinion. Highly debatable. but very much defendable too...

In test cricket, because of the nature of the game, the slip cordon is populated by the primary fielders. leaving the off side open, the bowlers temp the batters to drive and edge to slips. the main wicket taking strategy in this format is, therefore, very much dependent on slip catching.

In ODI cricket, because quick runs are paramount, the inner circle of fielders assumes greater importance. Not just to take catches and cut runs. But also to effect run outs with direct hits, and more importantly, create the fear of sharp run outs and reduce sharp singles (and reduce rotation of strike, drop the scoring rate) and even cause run outs out of confusion. Two gun fielders in the circle will mean a world of difference. three would be an army. I don't know how to quantify their contribution. But for the bowling attack, such protection is invaluable in building pressure and bagging wickets.

This is basically standard Australian cricketing "doctrine" so to speak. It's basically accepted wisdom down here and has been for basically my whole life, pushed by Chappelli et al.

Also, re: that stat why are we combining Tests and ODIs here? How many run outs have been effected from second slip?

 

[Bolo.]

You've cherry picked one of literally the only two positions that are typically employed where a gun fielder - although what exactly that constitutes varies by position - wouldn't make that much difference.

The "20 runs a game" thing is obviously highly exaggerated but even if we talk on average about 2-3 runs a game for a great fielder vs a good one - basically a boundary saved that wouldn't have been otherwise - that's a pretty significant difference across an entire cricket team when you consider how tight the margins are at this sort of level. How often in ODI games do we judge a side batting first to have made 15-20 runs too many/too few to be truly competitive?

Any minor but enduring advantage could easily be decisive in a crunch match, not least because it measurably raises the chance that you'll get something significant breaking your way, like a great catch or run out.

Mentioning the most important and the least important fielders isnt cherry picking- Im just highlighting marginal utility. It goes down after the first two. I reckon that three is the magic number after which it drops most suddenly- a big proportion of balls are hit at 3 offside ring fielders early on and at 3 boundary fielders in the slog. Just a guess though

Obviously, stacking the ring early would help as RH is suggesting. But the difference between a great 5th best fielder and a good one is going to be pretty small- the ball is only going to them a handfull of times in a game, and many games there wont be an impact at all.

 

[harsh.ag]

Also, re: that stat why are we combining Tests and ODIs here?

It's the only stat I could find

 

[stephen]

According to this article here, Symonds got a run out in roughly 15% of ODIs. Ponting 13%. Yuvraj ahead on 16%. But the highest proportion was from Younis Khan on 17%. Rhodes had virtually identical stats to Symonds.

But this was only after the 99 world cup and only up to 2005. Jayawardene had affected the largest number of run outs in that time.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23064445/statistics-run-outs-odis

 

[harsh.ag]

According to this article here, Symonds got a run out in roughly 15% of ODIs. Ponting 13%. Yuvraj ahead on 16%. But the highest proportion was from Younis Khan on 17%. Rhodes had virtually identical stats to Symonds.

But this was only after the 99 world cup and only up to 2005. Jayawardene had affected the largest number of run outs in that time.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23064445/statistics-run-outs-odis

Ah. So Jonty got ~50 run outs in 151 ODIs before that. That's impressive.