The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[ankitj]

Bevan > Jones > Ponting > Hussey > M Waugh > Chappell > Watson > Symonds > Hayden > Gilchrist

Keeping aside currently active players.

 

[Migara]

Losing a lot of credibility by suggesting Kallis. That's laughable tbh. Flintoff is a far better option in every way.

Still way better bowler than Symonds, and the batsman who could anchor the innings to prevent slides. Kallis >> Symonds as a player by miles.

 

[Migara]

Disagree. As it stands Symonds already walks into an all time T20 XI imo. The format was made for him.

Before Symonds Sanath as the all rounder and Gilly as the keeper walks in. Probably the first true T20 players to debut after Viv and SRT.

 

[stephen]

Bevan > Jones > Ponting > Hussey > M Waugh > Chappell > Watson > Symonds > Hayden > Gilchrist

Keeping aside currently active players.

I'd have Symonds ahead of Watson and Gilchrist ahead of Hayden and all of these ahead of Hussey. I'd place Ponting ahead of Jones as well.

Bevan > Ponting > Waugh > Jones > Chappell > Gilchrist > Symonds > Hayden > Hussey > Watson

All of whom are worthy of consideration for an AT XI since they all bring something to the table.

Still way better bowler than Symonds, and the batsman who could anchor the innings to prevent slides. Kallis >> Symonds as a player by miles.

Kallis was a better bowler than Symonds but he was a relic in ODIs. Woefully slow for his era and notably relieved the pressure after de Villiers was run out in the world cup match in 2007. He was good enough to play for SA but shouldn't be anywhere near the thoughts of an AT side.

But then I have been known to rate players differently to others at times.

 

[Bolo.]

Still way better bowler than Symonds, and the batsman who could anchor the innings to prevent slides. Kallis >> Symonds as a player by miles.

I dont think I would even put Kallis in an RSA XI, and he is competing with some distinctly mediocre players.

Kallis had a more accomplished career, and you could argue he would be a better asset in a weaker side, but sticking him in a world XI is madness. He would be an utter liability with the bat.

Symonds at least has a case for a world XI (not that strong a case imo, but its close), as long as he isnt being used as more than a part time bowler.

 

[Daemon]

Before Symonds Sanath as the all rounder and Gilly as the keeper walks in. Probably the first true T20 players to debut after Viv and SRT.

Nah, no need for Sanath or Gilchrist in the AT T20 XI because they’d then be opening, and Gayle + BMac is the more accomplished duo.

 

[marc71178]

I always feel that fielding is taken into account nowhere near enough in this sort of thing. A gun fielder can save 20-30 runs in an innings from ground fielding alone, and that extra classic catch/run out they take on occasion could make an immeasurable difference.

Massive overstatement there...

 

[marc71178]

The point is (sigh) Symonds is being selected (perhaps) as a fifth bowler. You, and others, are saying "he's not good enough, he'd get spanked at this ATG level".

Yet over his career, his bowling ER compared with frontline bowlers who might be considered 2nd XI.

You realise that the reason they are cosidered so highly as bowlers is because they bowled every game and were wicket takers?

 

[Red]

All his part time pie chucker colleagues have similar economy rates. How does this make Symonds a better bowler?

Sanath - 4.8
Ganguly - 5.06
Sachin - 5.1
Viv - 4.5
Yuvraj - 5.1
Collingwood - 5

Where did I ever say he was a better bowler than any of them?

 

[Red]

I'm surprised you took that comment seriously. Btw your new avi rules. I love Patton & Faith No More, is that from the Ashes to Ashes film clip?

I just got tickets to the Melb show. Gen Admission too. I'm gonna be there hours before doors open, and right at the front for the gig.

REM and FNM are the only two of my ten fave bands I haven't yet seen. Prob never see REM I guess.

 

[Red]

You realise that the reason they are cosidered so highly as bowlers is because they bowled every game and were wicket takers?

I've pointed out to you, comprehensively, twice now, in two different threads, the facts, supported by data, that Symonds was more than a part time bowler in the Aust ODI side. Probably the greatest ODI side ever assembled.

I have never once even suggested Symonds was better than the frontline bowlers I am comparing his economy rate to. Your argument is a dumb strawman, as usual. I said his economy rate (of five) is comparable with some of the leading bowlers of his era. Which, for a fifth bowling option (who's an elite bat and field), is what you'd expect to balance a side.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You realise that the reason they are cosidered so highly as bowlers is because they bowled every game and were wicket takers?

ffs it's not even my comment and I'm getting frustrated by so many people missing the point. All he's doing is comparing their economy rates. He never said they were equivalent as bowlers.

 

[marc71178]

ffs it's not even my comment and I'm getting frustrated by so many people missing the point. All he's doing is comparing their economy rates. He never said they were equivalent as bowlers.

But what is the point of comparing them? He bowled at the easiest time and didn’t threaten whereas the others mentioned bowled at far more important times and not only kept the runs down but did something far more important in dismissing batsmen.

 

[Red]

But what is the point of comparing them? He bowled at the easiest time and didn’t threaten whereas the others mentioned bowled at far more important times and not only kept the runs down but did something far more important in dismissing batsmen.

You seem to be really struggling with your comprehension.

 

[jimmy101]

I just got tickets to the Melb show. Gen Admission too. I'm gonna be there hours before doors open, and right at the front for the gig.

REM and FNM are the only two of my ten fave bands I haven't yet seen. Prob never see REM I guess.

Nice mate!! Front row seats at Rod Laver is going to be amazing! And yes, you are lucky to catch FNM whilst you can. It's never easy to tell what's going on with those guys.

What did you think of their latest album, Sol Invictus? Personally, I loved it. Would rate it just as highly as their classic material.

 

[Red]

Nice mate!! Front row seats at Rod Laver is going to be amazing! And yes, you are lucky to catch FNM whilst you can. It's never easy to tell what's going on with those guys.

What did you think of their latest album, Sol Invictus? Personally, I loved it. Would rate it just as highly as their classic material.

I like it. No filler on any FNM album, all brilliant.

I was about ten when my friend’s older brother made me a taped copy of The Real Thing. First music I got into outside of my parent’s tastes. Set me on a path of alt rock that I’ve never got off

 

[Bolo.]

Where did I ever say he was a better bowler than any of them?

Better than most of them tbf. I rank Symonds behind collingwood and Jaya, but ahead of the rest.

I've pointed out to you, comprehensively, twice now, in two different threads, the facts, supported by data, that Symonds was more than a part time bowler in the Aust ODI side. Probably the greatest ODI side ever assembled.

The info you provided is more of a justification for Symonds being a part time bowler (somewhere between 5th and part time tbf) than evidence he was not a part timer. Look at the list of overs per match from the allrounders I gave a couple of pages ago, all of whom have reasons why they didnt bowl that much. Symonds bowled substantially less than most of them. The only comparable guy is Viv, who still bowled more overs per match than Symonds, while playing for a fairly similarly composed side. Viv was often used as a 5th bowler rather than a part timer, but nobody is happy designating him as 5th bowler in an ATG side- people barely even consider him a viable part timer at top level.

 

[Daemon]

Massive overstatement there...

Yeah, with those numbers you should pick eleven Rhodes because you'd save 220-330 runs a game

 

[Daemon]

Runs saved across the entire WC 19 (roughly 10 games each)

Guptill 53
Jadeja 41
Maxwell 41

 

[TheJediBrah]

Runs saved across the entire WC 19 (roughly 10 games each)

Guptill 53
Jadeja 41
Maxwell 41

None of them close to as good as Symonds

Symonds would have saved 500+ in the group stages alone and taken 15 wickets at an economy of 5.00 as world class 5th bowler