DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[TestMatch]

Yeah but if you go by first class cricket .

Sure, but IMO Sanga looked good internationally up until the last NZ tour. I don't think he lost any skill or reflexes. I think he just mentally retired from that point on-wards, didn't care, and was going through the motions till retirement.

Ponting had visibly physically lost something, even though mentally he was still hungry for cricket.

Sanga, in contrast, seemed to be physically getting better, but had mentally opted out of the game to be with his family.

You mean these stats?

Unless you're combining ODIs and Tests, those stats are wrong.

Tendy famously averages 41 vs McWarne, and Lara 51. Pretty sure Tendy doesn't average in the 40s when Donald and Pollock play together, either. If I recall, he averages in the low 30s vs Donald, and high 30s vs Pollock.

Ambrose never traveled to India for Tests. I think Tendy only played him and Walsh in one rain drenched tour.

Would be interesting to know which WI bowler statistically troubled Tendy the most. My memory is of him never being troubled by WI bowlers; he was so compact and super-cautious vs the WIs in the 90s.

Feels like Kallis got a lower % of free run series like bangers and zim.

Instinctively I'd have put Kallis over Sanga. My gut tells me Kallis had more important knocks vs tougher opposition, and led to more wins. But Sanga also feels like a much better, more rounded batsman than Kallis. It's hard to rank them.

 

[Burgey]

Gavaskar vs Lara against top attack
Gavaskar vs Marshall average 50
Lara vs McGrath average 45
Gavaskar vs Imran/ Qadir average 51
Lara vs Wasim/Waqar average 35
Gavaskar vs Hadlee average 35
Lara vs Donald average 30

If people want to have Gavaskar vs Lara discussion, I will post more stats.

Well, Gavaskar averaged 17 the only series he played a full strength Australian attack here. Lara did considerably better than that.

Edit: in order to be fair to Sunny, I should say he also averaged a mighty 28 playing for the ROW in 1971/72 out here. Though of course they aren't test matches, but as they improve his record by such a large margin, I thought it was only the right thing to include them.

Anyway, as for Sanga, great player. Awesome record and a pleasure to watch. Shame he ruined his legacy by wearing that ridiculous helmet towards the end. Otherwise, cant' really fault the bloke

 

[Bolo.]

Instinctively I'd have put Kallis over Sanga. My gut tells me Kallis had more important knocks vs tougher opposition, and led to more wins. But Sanga also feels like a much better, more rounded batsman than Kallis. It's hard to rank them.

No problem with this. Its hard to make a definitive (especially) stats based arguement for anyone above sanga since bradman. Very little problem with Kallis being ranked below Sanga, statistically or otherwise. Just questioning how one aspect of it happened.

 

[pardus]

Unless you're combining ODIs and Tests, those stats are wrong.

Tendy famously averages 41 vs McWarne, and Lara 51. Pretty sure Tendy doesn't average in the 40s when Donald and Pollock play together, either. If I recall, he averages in the low 30s vs Donald, and high 30s vs Pollock.

Ambrose never traveled to India for Tests. I think Tendy only played him and Walsh in one rain drenched tour.

Would be interesting to know which WI bowler statistically troubled Tendy the most. My memory is of him never being troubled by WI bowlers; he was so compact and super-cautious vs the WIs in the 90s.

.

He sarcastically added the clause of "live matches", was trying to be a little too witty.

 

[pardus]

He insinuated nothing of the sort ffs. Such a sneering and condescending tone of posting achieves nothing in this thread except invite a sneering response which you seem to want for some reason.

I mean fair enough, i agree Tendulkar didn't have any truly great series in the 90s against those bowlers and faced them pretty rarely. But series average can indeed be misleading, I think ankitj's point was fairly clear.

Nah, combined he played 20 matches against these bowlers in the 90s, That ain't a small sample by any means. That's more than the number of matches that most touring players play in Australia or South Africa, and
we don't hesitate one bit to judge batsmen by using their stats in those countries. He played quite a bit against Donald in the 90s actually (at least 3 series). Never succeeded in any of them.
His combined number of matches against these bowlers maybe significantly lesser than it is for some of the other batsmen of the era, but it is still a fair sized sample. Technically he was fine, but the fact remains he rarely had a
great series against great attacks in the 90s. If this fact causes his fanboys to be butthurt and they resort to barbed responses, I have no issues with it.

 

[Migara]

I find the way Kallis gets adjusted down on non-home average relative to Sanga a bit odd.

The parts of their careers that didnt overlap was the late 90s vs the early 2010s. General opinion seems to be that pitches and bowlers were tougher in the late 90s.

Feels like Kallis got a lower % of free run series like bangers and zim. Definitely got a more difficult run of it by playing in alien conditions more often (see Sangas % of games in Asia), but fair enough that this analysis cant capture quirks of stats like this.

Still, what is it that is causing this discrepancy? It isnt a huge relative adjustment, but Im surprised Sanga benefits.

SL was one of the toughest for batsmen. So home runs in SL may count higher.

 

[Days of Grace]

Is there an upper limit for career points?

The 2nd ranked batsman in each criteria gets the full amount of points, i.e. 500 in overall, 200 in peak, and 100 each in career, non-home and quality opposition. The batsmen below that get a percentage of the full amount of points depending on how close they are to the 2nd ranked batsman.

The 1st ranked batsman gets points based on how far they are ahead of the 2nd rated batsman. In this way, there are no real restrictions as to how many points a batsman like Bradman can obtain and thus we can also see just how far ahead of the other batsmen he really is.

 

[Days of Grace]

I find the way Kallis gets adjusted down on non-home average relative to Sanga a bit odd.

The parts of their careers that didnt overlap was the late 90s vs the early 2010s. General opinion seems to be that pitches and bowlers were tougher in the late 90s.

Feels like Kallis got a lower % of free run series like bangers and zim. Definitely got a more difficult run of it by playing in alien conditions more often (see Sangas % of games in Asia), but fair enough that this analysis cant capture quirks of stats like this.

Still, what is it that is causing this discrepancy? It isnt a huge relative adjustment, but Im surprised Sanga benefits.

I have looked into this. Here are the home and away stats for Sangakkara and Kallis.

Home
Sangakkara 55.07 (60.44) (0.91)
Kallis 54.23 (56.73) (0.96)

This suggests that Kallis had more testing conditions at home than Sangakkara. In addition, Sangakkara scored big runs when conditions were easy for batting at home more often than Kallis.

Non-Home
Sangakkara 50.62 (54.08) (0.94)
Kallis 48.67 (53.66) (0.91)

The opposite is true for non-home matches. When Sangakkara went overseas he generally found conditions more difficult for batting than in Sri Lanka. On the other hand, Kallis found the pitches outside of South Africa to be more batsmen-friendly.

In a nutshell, batsmen who make a habit of scoring a lot of runs when the going is easy will take a greater hit to their averages across a career.

 

[honestbharani]

Turns out, J_C was the one pardus was after. We should let them settle it out in a seperate thread.

 

[sunilz]

Well, Gavaskar averaged 17 the only series he played a full strength Australian attack here. Lara did considerably better than that.

Edit: in order to be fair to Sunny, I should say he also averaged a mighty 28 playing for the ROW in 1971/72 out here. Though of course they aren't test matches, but as they improve his record by such a large margin, I thought it was only the right thing to include them.

Anyway, as for Sanga, great player. Awesome record and a pleasure to watch. Shame he ruined his legacy by wearing that ridiculous helmet towards the end. Otherwise, cant' really fault the bloke

Since you want to include super tests , also include the match ROW vs MCC XI in 1987 where he scored 188 . This would take his cumulative average to 40 , not bad .
Now compare this to average of 16.5 of Lara vs Kumble/ Harbhajan

Since you brought that 1980/81 tour of AUS , iirc Kapil Dev took more 5 wkt haul in that tour than both Dennis Lillee and Glenn McGrath have in in their entire career in Asia

 

[stephen]

Since you want to include super tests , also include the match ROW vs MCC XI in 1987 where he scored 188 . This would take his cumulative average to 40 , not bad .
Now compare this to average of 16.5 of Lara vs Kumble/ Harbhajan

Since you brought that 1980/81 tour of AUS , iirc Kapil Dev took more 5 wkt haul in that tour than both Dennis Lillee and Glenn McGrath have in in their entire career in Asia

You've made an art form of picking the one random stat to reinforce your own opinion. It's really amusing actually. Who gives a **** how many 5fers a bowler took. One would not say that Cummins had a bad Ashes tour last year and yet he only took one Michelle. It's as pointless of a statistic as you can get.

 

[sunilz]

5 wkt haul measures the ability of a bowler to run through batting side . Lack of 5 wkt haul means 2 things
1. Bowlers faced competition from other bowlers in his side to take wkts ( Which neither Lillee and McGrath faced atleast in IND where their main spinner was useless, Though McGrath faced some competition from Warne in SL and PAK but he didn't tour SL in 2004 which was Warne's best performance in Asia , so no excuses to pick only 1 5 wkt haul in his entire career in Asia )
2. Bowler lacked ability to run through batting line up ( which McGrath certainly did , no need to comment about Lillee in Asia , everyone knows)

 

[OverratedSanity]

Nah, combined he played 20 matches against these bowlers in the 90s, That ain't a small sample by any means. That's more than the number of matches that most touring players play in Australia or South Africa, and
we don't hesitate one bit to judge batsmen by using their stats in those countries..

Speak for yourself. I've made my dislike for that kind of analysis pretty clear. Im ok with taking combined records against stronger countries, or grouping outside asia matches for example though because atleast that usually provides a meaningful sample across many series.

 

[Days of Grace]

No.5

Brian Lara (West Indies) 886

Quality Points: 796
Career Points: 90

Career/Runs: 1990-2006, 11912 (rank 8)

Overall average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 51.71 (53.17) 50.36 (51.79) 58.32 (60.49) (rank 10)
50 Innings Peak Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate (2002-2006): 65.85 63.21 58.95 (rank 11)
Non-Home Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 47.31 46.92 58.30 (rank 24)
Quality Opposition Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 50.42 49.25 57.33 (rank 15)

A batsman who combined a great career together with some of the most memorable innings ever played, Brian Charles Lara, a.k.a. the Prince, makes his bow at no.5. His record is very solid in all facets but it is his runs per innings and strike-rate which means that he places just above Sachin Tendulkar. Unlike Tendulkar, who has the run-scoring records, we will remember Lara for the moments of brilliance. The 277 at the SCG, the 153* at Kingston, and the 688 runs in Sri Lanka in a 0-3 series loss. Lara scored big tons when conditions were easy, and he scored brilliant tons against the best bowlers of his day. That he isn't 2nd on this list is a reflection of the fact that he didn't do it often enough. Consistency wasn't his strong suit. His runs also counted for less and less as his team got weaker around him in the 2000s. But when he strode to the crease, usually when his side were 1 or 2 down for next to nothing, you had to sit down and watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEY8j630yTg

 

[Bolo.]

SL was one of the toughest for batsmen. So home runs in SL may count higher.

Im specifically looking at away averages to avoid the Lankan batting highway/minefield question. Tourists (not named India) do not know how to bowl in Lanka, and it is hard to get a statistical breakdown of the pitches, at least in the 2000s, when they appeared to be free wickets when Vaas and Murali were bowling, and free runs when Lanka were batting. Lankan averages or wickets are not relevant to my question.

I have looked into this. Here are the home and away stats for Sangakkara and Kallis.

Home
Sangakkara 55.07 (60.44) (0.91)
Kallis 54.23 (56.73) (0.96)

This suggests that Kallis had more testing conditions at home than Sangakkara. In addition, Sangakkara scored big runs when conditions were easy for batting at home more often than Kallis.

Non-Home
Sangakkara 50.62 (54.08) (0.94)
Kallis 48.67 (53.66) (0.91)

The opposite is true for non-home matches. When Sangakkara went overseas he generally found conditions more difficult for batting than in Sri Lanka. On the other hand, Kallis found the pitches outside of South Africa to be more batsmen-friendly.

In a nutshell, batsmen who make a habit of scoring a lot of runs when the going is easy will take a greater hit to their averages across a career.

I really appreciate the way you take the time to answer methodology questions in the middle of this massive undertaking, while having to defend yourself from the inevitable 'you are wrong because your ranking disagrees with my subjective opinion' comments.

But I dont think you have actually addressed my question. See my previous comment

 

[OverratedSanity]

Im specifically looking at away averages to avoid the Lankan batting highway/minefield question. Tourists (not named India) do not know how to bowl in Lanka

Even Indian bowlers usually suck in SL. Imo more so due to the kookaburra than the pitch/overhead conditions though.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Only 4 points separating Barrington (882), Tendulkar (883), Sangakkara (885), Lara (886). Im expecting a bigger gap from Lara to whoever is next.

 

[Burgey]

Since you want to include super tests , also include the match ROW vs MCC XI in 1987 where he scored 188 . This would take his cumulative average to 40 , not bad .
Now compare this to average of 16.5 of Lara vs Kumble/ Harbhajan

Since you brought that 1980/81 tour of AUS , iirc Kapil Dev took more 5 wkt haul in that tour than both Dennis Lillee and Glenn McGrath have in in their entire career in Asia

But sunilz, you're the one talking about his performances vis a vis Lara's in certain countries against certain attacks. The man averaged less than 20 against a full strength attack here when he played against them. which looks awful compared with Lara's record in Australia against full strength attacks. What he did in a ROW game in England against a composite attack from across the globe is as meaningful in this comparison as Michael Bevan's knock in that charity ODI game vs Asia how ever many years ago if you're comparing him as a player with someone like Dhoni on say English or SA pitches. It might have been a great knock, but it's meaningless for the purposes of this argument - which, btw, is an argument you wanted to have, not anyone else.

And this sort of post makes me think you're a Cevno multi - get utterly schooled on the basis of your own questionable methodology or metric, then run across into comparisons between other players in completely different disciplines of the game.

"I think Gavaskar was better than Lara in Australia against the best bowlers."
"Well actually, sunilz, he averaged <20 against them here when he played a full strength attack, which is a lot less than Lara did."
"YEAH?! WELL KAPIL TOOK MORE FIVE FERS OUT OF ASIA THAN LILLEE DID IN ASIA, DIDN'T HE?! EH? EH?"

It just takes a special kind of thinking to do that sort of Cevnoing, yet you do it all the time. It's bizarre, and bereft of any semblance of reason.

 

[sunilz]

He sarcastically added the clause of "live matches", was trying to be a little too witty.

That is less witty than you excusing Walsh because Ambrose didn't tour IND in 1994 or excluding Warne because McGrath didn't tour IND in 98. And guess what Tendulkar had excellent series in both 94 and 98 , so you cleverly excluded it.
Walsh still has the best average of any non Asian fast bowler in Asia iirc. And Warne routinely massacred SL and PAK in Asia. But carry on.
I mean is it Tendulkar's fault that Ambrose and McGrath didn't tour IND in 90s ?

 

[Burgey]

Only 4 points separating Barrington (882), Tendulkar (883), Sangakkara (885), Lara (886). Im expecting a bigger gap from Lara to whoever is next.

Yeah, this is incredibly close, isn't it? Shows you how narrow the points of difference are between these properly great players.