DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[sunilz]

That makes no sense. Getting out against an attack includes all bowlers of the attack. How do you know the presence of Wasim and Waqar did not impact the way he played Saqlain or the Ws themselves? The stat is to figure out runs against attacks that included quality bowlers based on generally accepted definition of the word "quality". I don't see how what you posted is relevant at all as pardus did not say Sachin struggled against the Ws alone specifically.

So you accept that Lara struggled vs Kumble and Harbhajan because he averaged around 34 against IND .

 

[OverratedSanity]

Nah, I am not attempting to prove that Sachin was Wasim/Waqar's bunny. It is probably hyper-defensive reaction from Sachin fans that is assuming such insinuations from me.

I don't get one thing. All sorts of stats filterings were used by Sachin fans to question Sanga's rank in this list (like his performance inside Asia & outside Asia etc.) or
to question Barrington's rank in the list. Then why the defensive whining & assumed insinuations when similar approach is used for Sachin?

He insinuated nothing of the sort ffs. Such a sneering and condescending tone of posting achieves nothing in this thread except invite a sneering response which you seem to want for some reason.

I mean fair enough, i agree Tendulkar didn't have any truly great series in the 90s against those bowlers and faced them pretty rarely. But series average can indeed be misleading, I think ankitj's point was fairly clear.

 

[honestbharani]

So you accept that Lara struggled vs Kumble and Harbhajan because he averaged around 34 against IND .

Lol.. I accept that he struggled against India. Why the sudden need to put words in people's mouths?

 

[honestbharani]

FTR, I do think pardus is over-reacting with respect to the Sachin fanboy/worship in this thread. The only one who really seemed to be doing it was Logan and then this other guy who just popped in to post a meaningless stat. Other than that, almost everyone here have been rather unanimous in agreeing where Sachin stands and why he landed where he did in this exercise. If I am not wrong, Sunilz put Lara above Sachin as a test batsman too. So maybe pardus can get over that and we will have no problems in this thread. And Logan has not really posted anything to be accused of Sachin fanboy-ism either after his ranking was revealed, IMO.

 

[OverratedSanity]

You'd all be surprised how many Indian fans rate Lara higher than Sachin. Hb is hardly a lone warrior on that front.

 

[sunilz]

Lol.. I accept that he struggled against India. Why the sudden need to put words in people's mouths?

Since you posted that Tendulkar's dismissal against Saqlain may be attributed to Wasim/ Waqar, so wanted to know whether same logic can be used for Lara's record vs India

 

[honestbharani]

To me, I still hate the fact that Lara played the ICL as otherwise I think Mi would have surely picked Lara and we would have seen the dream come true with Sachin and Lara opening for MI in the IPL.

 

[honestbharani]

Since you posted that Tendulkar's dismissal against Saqlain may be attributed to Wasim/ Waqar, so wanted to know whether same logic can be used for Lara's record vs India

But I did not say that, did I? I said failing against an attack is failing against an attack. You cannot dissect it to individuals as that is not how cricket works.

 

[sunilz]

I have already pointed out earlier that , I have no problem with Lara ranked higher than Sachin.
But if you want to use this statistical exercise to settle Sachin vs Lara, then keep in mind Sehwag has higher quality points than Dravid, Steve Waugh and Border or Kohli has higher quality points than Ponting, Sachin and Kallis . So this exercise is not error proof. Stop trying to provoke others by constant labelling ( This is for you pardus )

 

[ankitj]

Nah, I am not attempting to prove that Sachin was Wasim/Waqar's bunny. It is probably hyper-defensive reaction from Sachin fans that is assuming such insinuations from me.

Stopped reading after this. You need to spend more time on this forum to know posters better.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Waiting for the Prince to drop next.

 

[TestMatch]

I watched Sanga play county cricket after he retired; the guy had at least another year of international batting left him in. He looked so good, and seemed to have re-invented himself as a top-class ODI batsman as well in his latter years.

On espncricinfo, several years ago, Sanga penned an article about Lara, and the tips he picked up watching him bat. The impression I get is that Sanga's penchant for mammoth scores came from studying great batsmen from behind the stumps. You get the impression that Sanga has an intellectual streak, a capacity to learn and always improve, and that he'd have only gotten better the more he played.

 

[Migara]

So you accept that Lara struggled vs Kumble and Harbhajan because he averaged around 34 against IND .

Lara's downfall was brought on by Venkatapathy Raju. Never played Harbhajan on Indian soil if I am not mistaken, If my memeory serves right, Raju got him out 4 times, and other two times it was by seamers, can remember Srinath catching him on the backfoot. So no, your argument itself is in correct.

 

[Migara]

Since you posted that Tendulkar's dismissal against Saqlain may be attributed to Wasim/ Waqar, so wanted to know whether same logic can be used for Lara's record vs India

Tendulkar never played Wasim and Waqar at their prime. To balance that, he had to play one of the notoriously difficult spinner to pick (Saqlain), on minefields, and came out with trumps. No batting lineup other than India had to play Saqlain on such conditions. Heck even SL played on better wickets when Saqlain toured.

 

[J_C]

SRT vs the top 4 bowling pairs in the 90s:

Averaged 64.33 in games involving Ambrose and Walsh.
Averaged 57.25 in games involving McGrath and Warne.
Averaged 42.75 in games involving Wasim and Waqar.
Averaged 40 in games involving Donald and Pollock.

Overall averaged 49 in games involving the top 4 bowling pairs of the 90s with 80% of these games played away from home. Seems pretty good to me.

 

[J_C]

Yeah, I don't know why some posters are so much interested in having Tendulkar fans having meltdown. I can easily post 5 to 6 stats which would prove Lara was a dead rubber bully. If one or 2 poster so much want a meltdown then it would be in Lara fans camp.

You mean these stats?

In live matches against McGrath & Warne,

Tendulkar averaged 45.25 with 2 tons,
Lara averaged 42.16 with 2 tons.


In live matches against Donald & Pollock

Tendulkar averaged 42.87 with 1 ton,
Lara averaged 32.16 without a hundred.

In live matches against Wasim & Waqar,

Tendulkar averaged 39.71 with 1 ton,
Lara averaged 31.14 without a hundred.

In live matches against Ambrose & Walsh,

Tendulkar averaged 64.33 with no hundreds.


Against these ATG bowling pairs in live Tests,


Tendulkar scored 1357 runs @ 45.23 in 31 innings.

Lara scored 1658 runs @ 37.68 in 46 innings.

 

[Bolo.]

Career/Runs:
Sangakkara 2000-2015, 12400 (91.29 points)
Kallis 1995-2013, 13206 (100.00 points)

Overall average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate:
Sangakkara 52.95 (57.41) 49.08 (53.22) 48.72 (54.19) (445.19 points)
Kallis 51.56 (55.25) 44.32 (47.50) 42.88 (45.98) (419.99 points)

50 Innings Peak Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate:
Sangakkara 69.85 61.47 52.13 (187.77 points)
Kallis 72.69 53.79 43.66 (182.87 points)

Non-Home Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate:
Sangakkara 50.62 47.83 47.51 (79.20 points)
Kallis 48.67 41.46 41.12 (73.12 points)

Quality Opposition Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate:
Sangakkara 50.81 47.72 49.97 (81.96 points)
Kallis 48.71 43.95 44.40 (77.08 points)

Sangakkara is just a little better across all quality criteria. He has a greater RPW and strike-rate than Kallis which makes the difference.

I find the way Kallis gets adjusted down on non-home average relative to Sanga a bit odd.

The parts of their careers that didnt overlap was the late 90s vs the early 2010s. General opinion seems to be that pitches and bowlers were tougher in the late 90s.

Feels like Kallis got a lower % of free run series like bangers and zim. Definitely got a more difficult run of it by playing in alien conditions more often (see Sangas % of games in Asia), but fair enough that this analysis cant capture quirks of stats like this.

Still, what is it that is causing this discrepancy? It isnt a huge relative adjustment, but Im surprised Sanga benefits.

 

[stephen]

I watched Sanga play county cricket after he retired; the guy had at least another year of international batting left him in. He looked so good, and seemed to have re-invented himself as a top-class ODI batsman as well in his latter years.

On espncricinfo, several years ago, Sanga penned an article about Lara, and the tips he picked up watching him bat. The impression I get is that Sanga's penchant for mammoth scores came from studying great batsmen from behind the stumps. You get the impression that Sanga has an intellectual streak, a capacity to learn and always improve, and that he'd have only gotten better the more he played.

Yeah but if you go by first class cricket then Ponting still had a year or two left in him (He averaged 100 in his last year of shield cricket). But he was clearly past it internationally and had been for two years.

 

[thierry henry]

I love how in-depth statistical measures pump my bois Sanga and Barrington up the list. Niiiice.

 

[Bahnz]

Great batsman. Not surprised. Watched Sanga score 100* against Shane Bond & co. on a very difficult pitch (team total of 170 all out), and to prove it was no fluke, he repeated the feat in the very next match scoring 156* (team total of 268 all out). The second Test match to me was more memorable for Malinga's fiery bowling in the first innings though. New Zealand batsmen just couldn't handle the heat.

This. NZ had a very good bowling attack in this match (young Franklin could swing it a mile and Martin was always a threat to left handers) and the pitch was a genuine greentop. Probably the best innings I've ever seen played by a touring subcontinent batsman in NZ.