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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

ImpatientLime

ImpatientLime

International Regular
in light of another match winning display by ben stokes, rank the english all rounders.

ian botham
tony greig
andrew flintoff
ben stokes
w.g grace
wilfred rhodes
frank woolley
moeen ali
 
trundler

trundler

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Rhodes at his best was a devastating SLA who was a handy bat, wasn't he? Sadly overshadowed by SF Barnes in that period in the 1890s. When he was good enough to open the batting, he didn't bowl much. Kinda like Imran.

Grace as always is impossible to rate because his best preceded tests but it's hard to argue against someone who was outscoring all of England in terms of centuries while picking up wickets.

Greig is criminally underrated. Maybe he didn't play that long but he must've been a captain's dream. A balanced all rounder with a lot of X factor. A very consistent batsman and a good enough bowler. A moderate downgrade over Miller. Such all rounders are the unicorns of test cricket along with attacking openers.

Woolley and Flintoff are perhaps undersold by their stats and didn't live up to their potential at test cricket. Great players but not really in the conversation, are they?

It's down to Stokes and Botham if you disregard Grace imo. For a brief period Botham was a Bradmanesque all rounder but I think his underwhelming record against quality opposition makes it pretty close. Still, no one else has come close to replicating that fifer and century tally. Stokes is an incredible performer. Basically everything an all rounder should be. He's box office personified. He's capable of turning a game on its head with a fiery spell or attacking innings. Can grind it out and dry it up when needed too. A fierce competitor too. Sure he's inconsistent but that's as good as players of his kind get historically. See also: Miller, Botham.

I'll just ignore Moeen.
 
Red

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
The (brief) periods when Flintoff was fit enough to bowl quick showed how devastating a quick he was. Was a shame he couldn't do it a few more years
 
ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
ImpatientLime said:
in light of another match winning display by ben stokes, rank the english all rounders.

ian botham
tony greig
andrew flintoff
ben stokes
w.g grace
wilfred rhodes
frank woolley
moeen ali
Click to expand...
Grace
Woolley
Botham
Rhodes
Flintoff
Stokes
Greig
Moeen

As an aside, there are three openers there.
 
L

Logan

U19 Captain
trundler said:
They're all old timey home track bullies/favourable condition bullies who are held in much higher regard than say, someone like Hayden because their away records aren't scrutinized to the same extent with the 'average in X country' type of metrics. Laker, for example, didn't do that well against the very strong WI but doesn't get downgraded like Ashwin. Make of that what you will. You could say modern players are pulled down for pointless reasons or say these blokes are overrated.
Click to expand...

Does Sydney Barnes fit in the same criteria?

In Eng, he averages 13 with a SR of 36.

In SA, he averages 11 with a SR of 27.

In Aus, he averages 22 with a SR of 55.

His record in Aus isn’t bad but there is a vast difference between his performances in Eng/SA and Aus.
 
ImpatientLime

ImpatientLime

International Regular
the bloke has flat out won england games with the ball and turned multiple games around by blasting runs down the order.

not sure what the issue is. he's inconsistent but a match winner.
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
ImpatientLime said:
the bloke has flat out won england games with the ball and turned multiple games around by blasting runs down the order.

not sure what the issue is. he's inconsistent but a match winner.
Click to expand...
He's always been poor in Ashes tests, which ultimately are basically all that matter.
 
bagapath

bagapath

International Captain
ImpatientLime said:
in light of another match winning display by ben stokes, rank the english all rounders.

ian botham
tony greig
andrew flintoff
ben stokes
w.g grace
wilfred rhodes
frank woolley
moeen ali
Click to expand...
Botham


Stokes
Rhodes
Grieg
Woolley
Flintoff
Grace (in FC he should be the topper)
Bailey.
 
bagapath

bagapath

International Captain
An XI from the past 33 years made up of top cricketers in 3 year intervals


Gooch (90-93)
Hayden (2002-05)
Kallis (2008-11)
Tendulkar (96-99)
Kohli (2017-20)
ABDV (2014-17)
Gilchrist (2005-08)
Akram (87-90)
Steyn (2011-14)
Ambrose (93-96)
Murali (99-2002)
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
bagapath said:
An XI from the past 33 years made up of top cricketers in 3 year intervals


Gooch (90-93)
Hayden (2002-05)
Kallis (2008-11)
Tendulkar (96-99)
Kohli (2017-20)
ABDV (2014-17)
Gilchrist (2005-08)
Akram (87-90)
Steyn (2011-14)
Ambrose (93-96)
Murali (99-2002)
Click to expand...
To play against:

Sehwag (2005-07)
G Smith (2008-10)
Ponting (2002-04)
Lara (1996-98)
S Smith (2014-17)
S Waugh (1999-01)
Dhoni (2011-13)
Warne (1993-95)
Marshall (87-89)
Cummins (2017-20)
Walsh (1990-92)
 
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