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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Migara

International Coach
The other factor is Warne was a complete master of cricket's hardest skill, while Murali was an offie.
Once again the "world revolves around Australia" stuff. Leg spin is damn hard yes. But wrist spun off breaks are much more harder to bowl, in the sense that you have to be a bio mechanical freak like Erapali Prasanna or Muralitharan to do so.
 

Migara

International Coach
I get the feeling that the thrash English teams Warne faced, wouldnt have been considered as thrash if we were struggling to find a quality spinner.

Honestly, England regularly had at least 4 or 5 out of the top 6 who were good test batsman.
Still got smashed by Australia, SL or India, who had quality spinners in the rank.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
Was when Braddles was in his late 30s tbf. Looks like he kept finding Hutton's hands as well.
At a social gathering involving some journalists and a number of English players after the second day's of the first Ashes Test in 1948, Bill O'Reilly devised a strategy whereby Alec Bedser would target inswingers at Bradman's stumps with Len Hutton waiting for a catch at backward short leg. In the second over of the third morning, Bradman leg glanced a Bedser inswinger and Len Hutton, positioned at backward short leg, did not have to move. In the second innings, Bradman was held scoreless for nine balls, before receiving an inswinger from Bedser. Again, Bradman leg glanced and, for the first time in his career, was dismissed for a duck in England - caught Hutton at backward short leg, bowled Bedser.

Bradman overcame this tactic later in the series, shouldering arms and allowing the ball to strike his pads. He adopted a more patient game, no longer playing any leg glances against Bedser, who eventually gave up - his inswingers being met with a left leg thrust firmly forward.

See Bradman talking about it at 16:45 here:

 
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a massive zebra

International Captain
I don't know anything about Windies keepers aside from Walcott and Dujon, but I've always found it weird that Jackie Hendriks made their 2009 all-time Windies XI. Anyone know why this is the case?
Jackie Hendriks was also selected by Garry Sobers when he was asked by The Cricketer to select his all time West Indies XI in 1996.
 

akilana

International 12th Man
Now take out the wickets against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe and you'll find that he had 372 wickets at 22. So not only did Warne take his wickets at a lower average than Murali in Sri Lanka when playing them, but he did so even if you count Murali's wickets against all other top 8 opposition.

It's entirely fair to consider Murali to be better than Warne. It's entirely unfair to base it on their respective records against India. When they toured India both bowlers were similarly thrashed. When India toured them, one side prepared wickets to favor their team, the other side prepared wickets to neuter their bowlers enough so tests lasted 5 days.
This guy takes the crown for mental gymnastics
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
It detracts more than it helps. It imputes precision and certainty where none exist and creates false confidence. When you slice a batsman's record into such small pieces, the error margins on each number are so massive that it is statistically dishonest to draw firm conclusions from any of these numbers.
I've never done it on small slices and I only use stats like this when a player has a decent sample size. Somewhere in the vicinity of ten tests played in a country or against an opponent is good.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Once again the "world revolves around Australia" stuff. Leg spin is damn hard yes. But wrist spun off breaks are much more harder to bowl, in the sense that you have to be a bio mechanical freak like Erapali Prasanna or Muralitharan to do so.
You've pretty much just proved the point I was making with my post in the weirdest roundabout way.

But seriously, how did you manage to draw "world revolves around Australia" from my opinion that leg spin is cricket's most difficult art? I have no idea how you came to that conclusion and made it about nationality.

And as you said, Murali was able to do what he did thru weird biomechanics more than actually mastering a craft, without his deformity he would not have been able to do what he did. It was more luck that he was born that way than his effort in mastering a craft.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Nah leg spin is easy. Why else would people who spent so much time on batting (Bradman, Smith, Tendulkar, Headley, Pollock, Weekes, Chanderpaul, Lara, Hutton, Barrington, Miandad, Labuschagne) specialise in it.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Gonna throw a weird AT side out there:

JB Hobbs
L Hutton
DG Bradman
WG Grace
GS Sobers
WR Hammond
J Kallis
AC Gilchrist +
RJ Hadlee
MD Marshall
WJ O'Reilly

I feel like Kallis can cope as a 4th bowler with the support of Grace and Sobers. Grace is more a pet pick here. O'Reilly played on some real flat decks, Warne did less to an extent. Hammond had a fear over facing the new ball so I'll have him batting when the spinners are bowling and the second new ball a wee bit off, being reasonably good against the likes of Grimmett and O'Reilly.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Gonna throw a weird AT side out there:

JB Hobbs
L Hutton
DG Bradman
WG Grace
GS Sobers
WR Hammond
J Kallis
AC Gilchrist +
RJ Hadlee
MD Marshall
WJ O'Reilly

I feel like Kallis can cope as a 4th bowler with the support of Grace and Sobers. Grace is more a pet pick here. O'Reilly played on some real flat decks, Warne did less to an extent. Hammond had a fear over facing the new ball so I'll have him batting when the spinners are bowling and the second new ball a wee bit off, being reasonably good against the likes of Grimmett and O'Reilly.
I'm bored so here's a team to play you, all personal faves of mine:

G.Greenidge
B.Richards
V.Richards
G.Pollock
B.Lara
K.Miller *
L.Ames +
W.Akram
S.Warne
D.Lillee
C.Ambrose
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Warne vs Murali

Average In different countries

SA : 24 vs 26
Eng : 22 vs 19
NZ : 21 vs 20
Ind : 43 vs 45
Pak : 28 vs 25
WI : 39 vs 23
SL : 20 vs 19
Aus : 26 vs 75

SR in different countries

SA : 60 vs 60
Eng : 52 vs 48
NZ : 51 vs 52
Aus : 60 vs 131
Ind : 81 vs 86
Pak : 60 vs 56
SL : 39 vs 50
WI : 78 vs 50



Warne has a better average in Aus, SA and Ind.

Murali has a better average in Eng, NZ, Pak, SL and WI.

Statistically not much difference between them but I would choose Murali. Being able to be as good with almost no support tilts it in Murali’s favour IMO.
Plus Murali is decidedly the better bowler against India. He has 7 fivers and 2 tenfers against India and won 2 MoMs. Warne had only 1 inconsequential fiver. It's comforting to think if Warne had played against India in SL he could have racked up some 5-6 fivers. We all know however that he wouldn't have. (Talk of mental gymnastics)

If more proof was needed of who the better bowler against India, loo k at their ODI records too. Murali had 2 MoMs in shorter format too including an 8-fer against India while Karne had a measly 14 wickets in 18 matches with a whole ~1 run per over more in economy (even when he played India only up to 2002 or so). Different format but helps to show further how hapless Warne always was against India, while Murali had his moments even though his record is also not eye popping.
 
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stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This guy takes the crown for mental gymnastics
You don't count first grade stats alongside test stats so you might as well remove Bangladesh and Zimbabwe from Murali's stats.

It's not mental gymnastics it's common bloody sense.

Unless you're suggesting that Rashid Khan our the best bowler ever.
 

Migara

International Coach
You've pretty much just proved the point I was making with my post in the weirdest roundabout way.

But seriously, how did you manage to draw "world revolves around Australia" from my opinion that leg spin is cricket's most difficult art? I have no idea how you came to that conclusion and made it about nationality.

And as you said, Murali was able to do what he did thru weird biomechanics more than actually mastering a craft, without his deformity he would not have been able to do what he did. It was more luck that he was born that way than his effort in mastering a craft.
You are deluded that I have proven your point and now it seems world is revolving around you fr a change. Leg spin is not the most difficult art. There are so many legspinners in sub continent as bowlers and it was never the rarest. Wrist spun off breaks are difficult, and any one who suggests it is as same as orthodox off breaks, has absolutely no idea of the dynamics of the bowling action and how it behaves through the air. There is no drift to work with, like in orthodox off breaks, and you cannot develop and orthodox slider (non spinning ball) as well. That art needs special skills like express fast bowling. Wrist spun off breaks is a different craft altogther, and Murali and Prasanna have mastered it in the past.
 

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