The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[OverratedSanity]

Why should it not be held against him that he was rubbish in 2014? Both his tours are equally relevant.

 

[honestbharani]

I see what deathscar is trying to say but like OS said, both his tours matter the same amount when rating his performances there.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Why should it not be held against him that he was rubbish in 2014? Both his tours are equally relevant.

Because there was redemption. I meant held against him in the sense that someone will point out he was **** in such conditions because stats show he wasn't any good there (presumably never having seen the matches), whereas the truth is that he was absolute **** the first time out, and pretty darn good the second time.

It's the difference between two tours where he average 36 and 42, vs a 14 and 50+ (or whatever it was he average but assume it was something like that).

Both have their merits - but the former shows a player was consistent if somewhat average/mediocre. The latter shows that someone failed, worked hard at it, came back and succeded. The former is a Michael Atherton, the latter is a Virat Kohli - which the stats won't show (without further digging or actually watching the games).

 

[h_hurricane]

It is a very good way of looking at it. Kohli had a weakness against swinging ball(probably still has). What is unarguable is his willingness to work hard and improve his game and the stats second time around. I remember Jimmy Anderson, possibly the sourest grape this game has seen, completely dismissive of Kohli's extraordinary series at home against Eng in 2016. In the end, that standout series in 2018 would mean that England to Kohli would not be looked upon as SA to Dravid or India to Ponting, though it is hard to say he has beasted that country looking at his overall figures.

 

[vcs]

Kohli has visibly tightened his offside game in Tests since 2014. He will probably never have a monster series in England like Smith's Ashes (he loves the cover drive far too much), but he played the moving ball really well in SA a few months before, so his good tour of England wasn't a huge surprise. He got some luck early in Edgbaston, but he plays with softer hands now which helps his chances of survival. He was actually the best batsman consistently for us last year when the conditions were at their toughest, Johannesburg, Edgbaston and Perth.

As long as some new bowler doesn't make him his bunny, I don't see why he can't have another good tour of England before he hangs up his boots.

 

[vcs]

Those comments by Anderson in 2016 were dumb and churlish, though not unexpected. Coming from the king of bullying opponents in favorable conditions.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There are levels to this that people don't get. India would have happily taken a dravid-in-SA level performance from kohli in that series. He wasn't mediocre, he wasn't simply bad, he was genuinely as bad as any specialist batsman I have ever seen in a big series. When a top order batsman is so woeful that he can't even survive for a few spells, it cripples the entire lineup because wickets start falling in clumps. To say that you just ignore that because he came back brilliantly this time is silly. They are two different series and neither should be ignored.

If he goes back in 2014 and stinks it up again, he will rightly get a lot of criticism. Ftr, I don't think him having as poor a series there again is very likely because he's clearly made adjustments. .

 

[Spark]

Shits me so much when players go "yeah, well, wait 'til you get over to our place and then see how well you do". How about you put down the rocks when standing in a glass house and work on being less **** away from home, ****s

 

[honestbharani]

Kohli has visibly tightened his offside game in Tests since 2014. He will probably never have a monster series in England like Smith's Ashes (he loves the cover drive far too much), but he played the moving ball really well in SA a few months before, so his good tour of England wasn't a huge surprise. He got some luck early in Edgbaston, but he plays with softer hands now which helps his chances of survival. He was actually the best batsman consistently for us last year when the conditions were at their toughest, Johannesburg, Edgbaston and Perth.

As long as some new bowler doesn't make him his bunny, I don't see why he can't have another good tour of England before he hangs up his boots.

To be completely honest, if Anderson was there, I think Kohli would have had a similar series to Smith in 2018 itself. While Anderson never got him out, the control he gave was something else and went against Virat a lot of times. Anyone else would have opened more scoring opportunities and he could well have cashed in. Of course, this is very much conjecture and that is how I see that going down.

 

[honestbharani]

Shits me so much when players go "yeah, well, wait 'til you get over to our place and then see how well you do". How about you put down the rocks when standing in a glass house and work on being less **** away from home, ****s

Amazingly that has been common between most of the pig 3 players.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Shits me so much when players go "yeah, well, wait 'til you get over to our place and then see how well you do". How about you put down the rocks when standing in a glass house and work on being less **** away from home, ****s

Rohit Sharma saying this to Dale Steyn of all people was the peak

 

[h_hurricane]

Kohli's performance in 2014 shouldn't be ignored. It is just that he has got the monkey off the back. England was his bogey country once, not any more.

 

[Spark]

Rohit Sharma saying this to Dale Steyn of all people was the peak

Did lead to an ATG sledge in reply though.

 

[Spark]

To be completely honest, if Anderson was there, I think Kohli would have had a similar series to Smith in 2018 itself. While Anderson never got him out, the control he gave was something else and went against Virat a lot of times. Anyone else would have opened more scoring opportunities and he could well have cashed in. Of course, this is very much conjecture and that is how I see that going down.

I don't think you can match Smith's output without matching his discipline. Kohli quite deliberately took a much more high risk, high reward approach which obviously means he always looked more likely to get out than Smith did, where you might as well have been bowling at a brick wall for all the danger the bowlers posed him.

 

[vcs]

Yeah Smith's technique looked impenetrable in that series. It's what makes him the batsman he is. Can't expect others to replicate that.

 

[h_hurricane]

An XI to play Aussies during Bradman era.

Herbert Sutcliffe
Len Hutton
Wally Hammond
Dudley Nourse
Vijay Hazare
Dattu Phadkar
Les Ames
Maurice Taite
Hedley Verity
Harold Larwood
Bill Voce

 

[kyear2]

Yeah Smith's technique looked impenetrable in that series. It's what makes him the batsman he is. Can't expect others to replicate that.

Does it though?

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think you can match Smith's output without matching his discipline. Kohli quite deliberately took a much more high risk, high reward approach which obviously means he always looked more likely to get out than Smith did, where you might as well have been bowling at a brick wall for all the danger the bowlers posed him.

But he did not do that against Anderson, which is my point. He could have had a daddy series like in Aus in 2014-15 or it could have ended just like how it did end up during that series. I just felt it was Anderson who got him to get himself out a few times when he may not have been so anxious to score off the others, if there was no Anderson in the side.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah Smith's technique looked impenetrable in that series. It's what makes him the batsman he is. Can't expect others to replicate that.

But who said anyone has to replicate his technique?

 

[Victor Ian]

There is something to be said for the guy who has a weakness, goes away and works on it and then comes back and redeems himself. All this talk of 'yeah, but, he has a hole in his career' is for dickheads who want to promote who they want. How about, 'yeah but he never proved he can learn to play a different game and succeed'. Kohli's pathetic first up effort against England along with his redemption enhances his reputation.