The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red]

What is actually reaching ridiculous levels is your posting on such topics. .

Not sure how you come to this conclusion. I am providing nuanced, intelligent and cohesive reasons why Symonds should be considered in an ATG team context.

FWIW, I am not even arguing that he is necessarily a better batsman than some guys I choose to leave out (although I'd argue what he offers with the bat is absolutely ideal at 5/6 in an ODI innings), but as an entire package of an ODI cricketer, he ABSOLUTELY belongs in an ATG team conversation. Aggressive batting, the best ring fielder I've seen, handy change-up bowler. Anyway, I've said it enough.

If you and I were captains, selecting schoolyard teams with all ODI players lined up against a wall and taking turns to pick an XI before we play an actual match, Symonds would ALWAYS be in my XI. Always. Absolutely epic ODI cricketer.

 

[Red]

On a rough estimate, this team will help you save around 9.73 runs per ODI.

Where on earth did you pull that estimate from? Ridiculous.

 

[honestbharani]

Not sure how you come to this conclusion. I am providing nuanced, intelligent and cohesive reasons why Symonds should be considered in an ATG team context.

FWIW, I am not even arguing that he is necessarily a better batsman than some guys I choose to leave out (although I'd argue what he offers with the bat is absolutely ideal at 5/6 in an ODI innings), but as an entire package of an ODI cricketer, he ABSOLUTELY belongs in an ATG team conversation. Aggressive batting, the best ring fielder I've seen, handy change-up bowler. Anyway, I've said it enough.

If you and I were captains, selecting schoolyard teams with all ODI players lined up against a wall and taking turns to pick an XI before we play an actual match, Symonds would ALWAYS be in my XI. Always. Absolutely epic ODI cricketer.

And I have kept proving that he is not good enough as a batsman or a bowler or as an allrounder to make an ATG ODI XI. With far more nuanced, intelligent, coherent and factual arguments. You can pick whom you want, but when you start doing ridiculous mental gymnastics to justify him in the XI like Stephen, it is worth pointing out how untrue all of that is. If your argument is that he is the best fielder you have seen and so you will pick him, so be it. Bet most of the cricketing world won't see it that way, but that is up to you. Fielding judgement is subjective and your view is likely to be as true or as false or as biased as mine. But we do have numbers to show case batting and bowling achievements and he simply does not cut it for an ATG first XI. That is just how it is.

 

[honestbharani]

all the memes are coming back

just need a laughing emoji at the start of every response for completion

 

[_00_deathscar]

The latter is kind of odd as I think there are more strong bowling units around now, but there’s been a lack of stand out Individual greats apart from Steyn

I guess most of that is attributable to the fact that the really top notch bowlers, the ones in discussion for ATG status, only really began to establish themselves in the latter part of the decade, typically post 2015 or even post 2016.

Beyond that there’s a slew of bowlers who are ATVG or even the level below, perhaps more so than ever before, but who all work together in a pack and are thus as devastating as any attack before them.

 

[honestbharani]

It will be more interesting to do a 2015-2019 XI. Cummins, Shami and Rabada will be my fast bowling attack.

 

[_00_deathscar]

It will be more interesting to do a 2015-2019 XI. Cummins, Shami and Rabada will be my fast bowling attack.

Warner
? Tempted to just stick Root in here
Williamson
Kohli (C)
Smith
Taylor or Pujara
Watling (WK)
Jadeja/Lyon/Ashwin/Herath depending on what you want/need/prefer althoguh maybe Ashwin has dwindled a bit, certainly since around 2017
Rabada
Shami (too early for Bumrah?)
Cummins

I reckon this team beats the 2010-2014 team...

 

[ataraxia]

Warner
? Tempted to just stick Root in here
Williamson
Kohli (C)
Smith
Taylor or Pujara
Watling (WK)
Jadeja/Lyon/Ashwin/Herath depending on what you want/need/prefer althoguh maybe Ashwin has dwindled a bit, certainly since around 2017
Rabada
Shami (too early for Bumrah?)
Cummins

I reckon this team beats the 2010-2014 team...

Pujara opens here IMO.

 

[CricAddict]

yeah obviously ODI line ups have to be a lot more fluid.

HB, while I do not want to drag it any further, I just found it a bit odd that you laughed at the suggestion of a versatile batsman playing in the same position in one format while in the next post, you suggested a versatile batsman to play at the same position in a different format. Actually, imo a versatile batsman at 5 is required more in ODIs than tests.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Pujara opens here IMO.

Yea that's fair and might as well - was trying to find a way to get Taylor and Pujara into the side, might as well stick Pujara up at the top. 3-5 is pretty set in stone. Shame Root misses out I guess but also, post ~2016/2017 he really hasn't been great albeit somewhat consistent scores.

 

[honestbharani]

HB, while I do not want to drag it any further, I just found it a bit odd that you laughed at the suggestion of a versatile batsman playing in the same position in one format while in the next post, you suggested a versatile batsman to play at the same position in a different format. Actually, imo a versatile batsman at 5 is required more in ODIs than tests.

I agree. That is why I have AB... the most versatile batsman I have seen really.

 

[honestbharani]

Pujara opens here IMO.

Yeah, as much fun a Warner-Root combo can be opening, I would go with Pujara and Warner too and play Stokes at 6. The lone spinner can be Lyon given that we have Cummins and Rabada to bat at 8 and 9. Herath did not play that long this half of the decade and while I still think Ashwin is the best spinner in the world, in such exercises you have to consider the numbers the players have put on the board for that time period too. And Lyon wins that. Jadeja is a close second. Smith can double up as the second spinner where needed and maybe we can bring in Shakib for Stokes in turning tracks.

 

[Bolo.]

And I have kept proving that he is not good enough as a batsman or a bowler or as an allrounder to make an ATG ODI XI. With far more nuanced, intelligent, coherent and factual arguments. You can pick whom you want, but when you start doing ridiculous mental gymnastics to justify him in the XI like Stephen, it is worth pointing out how untrue all of that is. If your argument is that he is the best fielder you have seen and so you will pick him, so be it. Bet most of the cricketing world won't see it that way, but that is up to you. Fielding judgement is subjective and your view is likely to be as true or as false or as biased as mine. But we do have numbers to show case batting and bowling achievements and he simply does not cut it for an ATG first XI. That is just how it is.

As much as this is true, I don't think I have ever heard anyone (other than Aussies) say there is a better odi fielder than Rhodes. Part of this is definitely the pinoneering thing, but he is ahead on some some things.

Anyone not from Aus who watched Rhodes play rate anyone ahead of him?

 

[Spark]

As much as this is true, I don't think I have ever heard anyone (other than Aussies) say there is a better odi fielder than Rhodes. Part of this is definitely the pinoneering thing, but he is ahead on some some things.

Anyone not from Aus who watched Rhodes play rate anyone ahead of him?

Obviously I'm Australian IMO but the best all round fielder of the last 30 years is a certain RT Ponting and no you will not change my mind on this. Not necessarily the flashiest, the most memorable or the most spectacular, simply the most consistent in all facets of ground and aerial fielding with 100% dedication every single ball with minimal lapses.

Even in his dotage, after he'd retired from Tests and was basically just playing for Tasmania/Surrey, he was visibly the best and most dangerous fielder on the ground in terms of his anticipation and attack on the ball at the ripe old age of 37.

 

[Daemon]

Obviously I'm Australian IMO

Debatable

 

[Spark]

Debatable

yeah sometimes my brain does a thing where it spits out the wrong part of a sentence first and words appear in the wrong order

 

[stephen]

Australian here so whatever. Jonte was excellent in the field but in my mind was third behind Ponting and Symonds. Punter was versatile and could pull off ridiculous catches and create run outs from nowhere. Symonds was possibly a better ground fielder than Ponting but his catching, while top notch was below Ponting's. Rhodes was brilliant and there was probably no better fielder in the point region. I did get the feeling that he wasn't quite as versatile as either Ponting or Symonds though, which is why he's a shade behind.

The gap is minuscule though and I wouldn't begrudge anyone placing any of those three guys at the head of the pack.

 

[Days of Grace]

Chris Harris from a NZ perspective was pretty good at point.

 

[Malcolm]

Harris, Mahanama, Gibbs were all as good as Jonty IMO. I rate Ponting and Symonds higher.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Obviously I'm Australian IMO but the best all round fielder of the last 30 years is a certain RT Ponting and no you will not change my mind on this. Not necessarily the flashiest, the most memorable or the most spectacular, simply the most consistent in all facets of ground and aerial fielding with 100% dedication every single ball with minimal lapses.

Even in his dotage, after he'd retired from Tests and was basically just playing for Tasmania/Surrey, he was visibly the best and most dangerous fielder on the ground in terms of his anticipation and attack on the ball at the ripe old age of 37.

Australian here so whatever. Jonte was excellent in the field but in my mind was third behind Ponting and Symonds. Punter was versatile and could pull off ridiculous catches and create run outs from nowhere. Symonds was possibly a better ground fielder than Ponting but his catching, while top notch was below Ponting's. Rhodes was brilliant and there was probably no better fielder in the point region. I did get the feeling that he wasn't quite as versatile as either Ponting or Symonds though, which is why he's a shade behind.

The gap is minuscule though and I wouldn't begrudge anyone placing any of those three guys at the head of the pack.

It depends on what you value more ,really. Symonds was the best in the outfield, Ponting was easily the greatest I've ever seen at throwing the stumps down, and Rhodes was the quickest by a distance. In ODIs, I always felt even though Jonty didnt hit the stumps anywhere near as often as Ponting did, his ability to get to the ball and release it in one motion was so good it didnt matter much which is aruably more valuable in the format than the versatility of the other two.