The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Logan]

Even Gary Sobers as a lock is tough to defend.

Jacques Kallis was just as good, played almost twice the number of Tests matches and scored almost 11500 runs at an average of 45 in ODIs.

Apart from Don Bradman, no one else was way ahead of his peers.

 

[ankitj]

Apart from Don Bradman, every other choice for Top 5 is subjective.

Personally, I feel Murali with 1300+ wickets and Sachin with almost 35000 runs and 100 centuries deserves to be there though many people won’t agree with me.

That's fair. Tendulkar's claim in top 5 of all time is quite strong.

 

[honestbharani]

Even Gary Sobers as a lock is tough to defend.

Jacques Kallis was just as good, played almost twice the number of Tests matches and scored almost 11500 runs at an average of 45 in ODIs.

Apart from Don Bradman, no one else was way ahead of his peers.

Not gonna do a Sobers Vs Kalllis again here, suffice to say there is a reason there is almost an unanimous acceptance of Sobers' greatness across the cricketing world. But I agree about the bolded part. Bradman was just so so exceptional that he is basically the only lock for any ATG top 5 list. Every other one is arguable and boils down to personal preference as much as anything else.

 

[CricAddict]

My predictions :

Steve Smith could end up as the second greatest Test batsman. So he is a lock along with Bradman, Warne, McGrath and Gilchrist.

Rabada is a tricky one. Kallis, Steyn and Donald are Top 5 easily. There are many ATG SA batsmen but most of them barely played 20 Tests.

Ben Stokes has no chance. Too many legendary names of the past. Hutton, Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hammond, Trueman, Botham etc.

Kane Williamson is a lock. He is already the best NZ batsman ever. He will never displace Hadlee as the best NZ cricketer.

Kohli is already Top 5. He has already surpassed Dravid and Kumble. I am sure he will end up only below Sachin or maybe surpass Sachin too.

Yeah, I thought twice about Stokes too before adding him to that list. But he has some age on his side coupled with all round capabilities and match winning ability. Couple it with consistency at both batting and bowling in future and who knows. But yes, he is an outside contender only just like Rabada while the other 3 are locks for their country's top 5.

 

[Logan]

We aren’t talking about pure talent alone. Even if one accepts Sobers was more talented and marginally ahead of Kallis; it is almost impossible to ignore Kallis longevity(played 73 Tests more than Sobers) and his ODI career(300 ODIs and over 11500+ runs).

Pretty much Don Bradman is the only lock for everyone’s Top 5.

 

[Coronis]

Even Gary Sobers as a lock is tough to defend.

Jacques Kallis was just as good, played almost twice the number of Tests matches and scored almost 11500 runs at an average of 45 in ODIs.

Apart from Don Bradman, no one else was way ahead of his peers.

W.G would beg to differ.

 

[Malcolm]

I have a feeling that Kohli is going to have a Ponting-esque decline. As he is already 31, I don't see him surpassing Tendulkar, Gavaskar, or Kapil. If Bumrah is lucky to have a moderately long career, he can easily break into the Indian top 5.

 

[vcs]

Even if he declines rather sharply, his unreal century conversion rate in Tests will ensure that his stats look very good in posterity. 6 hundreds in Australia is remarkable.

 

[ankitj]

Even if he declines rather sharply, his unreal century conversion rate in Tests will ensure that his stats look very good in posterity. 6 hundreds in Australia is remarkable.

Yes, puts him behind only Hobbs and Hammond on list of most hundreds in Australia by a visiting batsman.

 

[Logan]

I have a feeling that Kohli is going to have a Ponting-esque decline. As he is already 31, I don't see him surpassing Tendulkar, Gavaskar, or Kapil. If Bumrah is lucky to have a moderately long career, he can easily break into the Indian top 5.

Hasn’t he surpassed Kapil and even Gavaskar?

Kohli is arguably the best ODI batsman of all time. Kohli is an ATG Test batsman. Kapil Dev was at best a good bowler and a decent batsman. At no point in his career Kapil was considered as the best.

In Tests, Kohli hasn’t surpassed Gavaskar. But if both formats are considered, Kohli has surpassed Gavaskar too. Kohli is the second best Test batsman of his generation and best ODI batsman.

 

[marc71178]

He can finish with a Test average in the early '60s, which would make him a very strong contender for the greatest since Bradman, but that may not be enough for people to rate him in the top 5 cricketers.

One can justifiably rate all-rounders like Imran, Hadlee, and Sobers ahead, or McGrath/Murali/Tendulkar who were ATGs in all forms of the game, or someone like Gilchrist who is almost undisputed choice for WK-batsman in most AT XIs for Tests and ODIs.

I very much dispute Gilchrist for ODIs.

 

[kyear2]

We aren’t talking about pure talent alone. Even if one accepts Sobers was more talented and marginally ahead of Kallis; it is almost impossible to ignore Kallis longevity(played 73 Tests more than Sobers) and his ODI career(300 ODIs and over 11500+ runs).

Pretty much Don Bradman is the only lock for everyone’s Top 5.

When Wisden did the top players of the 20th century only 2 players were anything close to a consensus. Bradman got all 100 votes, if I recall correctly Sobers got 90.

Kallis didn't have better longevity, they play more tests today than they did in the 50's and 60's. Sobers played just about 20 years, so he also has consistently and longevity on his side.

Sobers was also seen by many as the 2nd best bat after Bradman and surely doesn't drop out of the top 5 after Sir Don. He also was a versatile bowler who did everything from open the bowling with brisk medium pace to bowling two types of spin.
He was also a superb fielder everywhere, especially in the slips and around the corner to Gibbs.

Kallis was a special player and even underrated by many, but he doesn't challenge Sobers in my mind.

 

[vcs]

I very much dispute Gilchrist for ODIs.

Sure, but it's still a much stronger case than Smith for the AT ODI XI.

 

[h_hurricane]

Hasn’t he surpassed Kapil and even Gavaskar?

Kohli is arguably the best ODI batsman of all time. Kohli is an ATG Test batsman. Kapil Dev was at best a good bowler and a decent batsman. At no point in his career Kapil was considered as the best.

In Tests, Kohli hasn’t surpassed Gavaskar. But if both formats are considered, Kohli has surpassed Gavaskar too. Kohli is the second best Test batsman of his generation and best ODI batsman.

Kapil was the best Indian cricketer of his time from his debut till two years before his retirement. He was an ATVG bowler. There is no way Kohli has already surpassed him. Whether he does that at the end of his career is another matter altogether, in which case they both still will be in Top 5.

 

[Logan]

When Wisden did the top players of the 20th century only
2 players were anything close to a consensus. Bradman got all 100 votes, if I recall correctly Sobers got 90. .

The Wisden list happened in 2000. Kallis barely played 3 years back then.

The Wisden list lost relevancy when Warne was elected as the 4th best player of all time. As great as he was, Warne was not the 4th greatest cricketer ever and certainly not in 2000.

Kallis didn't have better longevity, they play more tests today than they did in the 50's and 60's. Sobers played just about 20 years, so he also has consistently and longevity on his side.

.

Sobers scored 8000+ runs in 93 Tests.

Kallis scored 13000+ runs in 163 Tests and 11000+ runs in 300+ ODIs.

Sobers was also seen by many as the 2nd best bat after Bradman and surely doesn't drop out of the top 5 after Sir Don.

I completely accept it. Sobers is among my Top 5 batsman ever.

He also was a versatile bowler who did everything from open the bowling with brisk medium pace to bowling two types of spin.

Despite the variety and talent, Sobers was a mediocre bowler.

While Kallis wasn’t as versatile, he was a better bowler. In the initial stages of his career, Kallis was bowling 90mph+ and was even faster than Allan Donald at times.

Kallis was a special player and even underrated by many, but he doesn't challenge Sobers in my mind.

This is what irritates me the most.

Sobers vs Kallis isn’t like Bradman vs Smith or Bradman vs Sachin. Sobers

Sobers was a great player. No doubt about it. But to say even Kallis doesn’t even challenge Sobers is an ignorant statement.

Once you take off the nostalgia glasses, you will realise Kallis did everything Sobers did. Just as good. In more matches. And in more than one format.

Harsha Bhogle said it best “The past is often overrated and the present is often underrated”.

 

[Logan]

Kapil was the best Indian cricketer of his time from his debut till two years before his retirement. He was an ATVG bowler. There is no way Kohli has already surpassed him. Whether he does that at the end of his career is another matter altogether, in which case they both still will be in Top 5.

Sunil Gavaskar was a greater cricketer than Kapil Dev. That’s not even debatable.

How has Kohli not surpassed him? Kohli is the best ODI batsman and second best Test batsman of his generation. Kohli is arguably the best ODI batsman ever.

Was Kapil Dev the best bowler or best all rounder at any point of his career?

I respect Kapil Paaji but he was never even close to being the best in anything like Kohli has been this decade.

 

[honestbharani]

Sunil Gavaskar was a greater cricketer than Kapil Dev. That’s not even debatable.

How has Kohli not surpassed him? Kohli is the best ODI batsman and second best Test batsman of his generation. Kohli is arguably the best ODI batsman ever.

Was Kapil Dev the best bowler or best all rounder at any point of his career?

I respect Kapil Paaji but he was never even close to being the best in anything like Kohli has been this decade.

You seem to preface almost all your opinions with this. Surely then, what is the point of posting in a forum?

FWIW, Kapil was a better cricketer than Gavaskar for a lot of the 80s and Sobers did much more than Kallis. Kallis is nowhere near the league of Sobers as a batsman, let alone as a bowler. Multiple formats does not bridge gaps like that.

 

[Logan]

People seem to mix natural talent with that they achieved.

Sobers had a batting average of 57 and a bowling average of 34.

Kallis had batting average of 55 and a bowling average of 32.


If someone says Sobers was better than Kallis that is fine with me.

But to say “Kallis can’t even challenge Sobers” or “Sobers was leagues ahead of Kallis” or “Sobers did much more than Kallis” is not only ignorant but plain wrong.

 

[Logan]

How is Kapil a greater Test cricketer than Gavaskar?

Gavaskar is a Top 10 Batsman. The greatest opener post-WW 2.

Kapil Dev was great for Indian standards. But not sure if anyone can call him a great bowler. He wouldn’t even be among Top 30 bowlers in the last 5 decades.

 

[h_hurricane]

Sunil Gavaskar was a greater cricketer than Kapil Dev. That’s not even debatable.

A big no here on the "not even debatable" front. While you could argue it, there are valid points from both sides. I was specifically talking about the period when their career coincided.
Kapil came from a nation which ridicules fast bowlers, a breed looked down upon like some unwanted species and also suffered from zero bowling support, yet was easily the Iron man of Indian cricket. Get him to bowl with the likes of Bumrah and Shami and see his figures improve.

Was Kapil Dev the best bowler or best all rounder at any point of his career?

Kapil was the best ODI allrounder throughout 1980s. Legendary performances like 1983 WC and 1985 WCC seals it..