The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[sunilz]

That one bad series in England hurting his overseas record. Even after doing extremely well in the 2018 tour to England, his average in England is quite ordinary in 30s.

Plus he has not toured UAE/PAK . I am sure if he tours there his overseas average will go up . For example Sangakkara's overseas average decreases to 43.4 if you remove runs scored against Pak and Bangladesh.
He needs a full series in UAE and Bangladesh for his overseas average to touch 50.

 

[honestbharani]

It is an option, but is very unlikely compared to the others.

I would say it is more likely than him finishing in the Dravid tier.

There is only one man above that Sachin tier and that is Don Bradman.





One more series and his average would be 40+ in England.

Says who? I have personally always felt Brian Lara was a better test match batsman than Sachin and there are many who hold that view. And FWIW, there are many who believe Sobers and Richards are well above the Sachin tier. There is no really objective measure that states Sachin is better than Steve Smith, for starters, let alone Sobers or some of the others who average in that range. And Kohli's career is only about 50-60% complete. The fact that you state with such conviction that only Bradman is above Sachin shows your tier ratings are based on personal preference and little else.

 

[ankitj]

Here is stats of batsmen in SENA countries playing as visiting batsmen since 1990:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

It does throw interesting light on how various batsmen did in these difficult to score countries. Sanga incidentally averages 46 in these conditions and Lara 44.

 

[srbhkshk]

Says who? I have personally always felt Brian Lara was a better test match batsman than Sachin and there are many who hold that view. And FWIW, there are many who believe Sobers and Richards are well above the Sachin tier. There is no really objective measure that states Sachin is better than Steve Smith, for starters, let alone Sobers or some of the others who average in that range. And Kohli's career is only about 50-60% complete. The fact that you state with such conviction that only Bradman is above Sachin shows your tier ratings are based on personal preference and little else.

There are plenty of guys you can rate above Sachin if you wish - I don't think there's anyone but Bradman above Sachin tier though.

 

[Coronis]

I would say it is more likely than him finishing in the Dravid tier.





Says who? I have personally always felt Brian Lara was a better test match batsman than Sachin and there are many who hold that view. And FWIW, there are many who believe Sobers and Richards are well above the Sachin tier. There is no really objective measure that states Sachin is better than Steve Smith, for starters, let alone Sobers or some of the others who average in that range. And Kohli's career is only about 50-60% complete. The fact that you state with such conviction that only Bradman is above Sachin shows your tier ratings are based on personal preference and little else.

Really? Of all the thousands of cricketers over the years you can only unequivocally put one batsman ahead of Sachin. Sachin’s in the very top tier of other batsmen. Kohli managing to seperate himself as either clearly the 2nd or 3rd best batsman ever (depending on if Smith continues), clearly ahead of players such as Hobbs, Sobers, Tendulkar etc. is pretty unlikely imo.

 

[Slifer]

Here is stats of batsmen in SENA countries playing as visiting batsmen since 1990:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

It does throw interesting light on how various batsmen did in these difficult to score countries. Sanga incidentally averages 46 in these conditions and Lara 44.

Yeah but they all faced various different quality in terms of bowling. Lara would've faced Donald and Pollock at near peak when he played them, where as others would've only played RSA when Steyn was just emerging and b4 the likes of Philander. Can you do a similar analysis in Asia???

 

[OverratedSanity]

Most of Lara's runs in SA were in series which had the far weaker SA attacks and some of the flattest pitches I've ever seen the country produce. Still played some great knocks, especially the double in 03, but Id say sachin and kohli's runs in the country were of comfortably higher quality overall.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah but they all faced various different quality in terms of bowling. Lara would've faced Donald and Pollock at near peak when he played them, where as others would've only played RSA when Steyn was just emerging and b4 the likes of Philander. Can you do a similar analysis in Asia???

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[honestbharani]

There are plenty of guys you can rate above Sachin if you wish - I don't think there's anyone but Bradman above Sachin tier though.

Again, you can think that. Its not gospel though. Many will have a different opinion, including me. Even tiers are subjective... crazy, I know!!!

 

[honestbharani]

Really? Of all the thousands of cricketers over the years you can only unequivocally put one batsman ahead of Sachin. Sachin’s in the very top tier of other batsmen. Kohli managing to seperate himself as either clearly the 2nd or 3rd best batsman ever (depending on if Smith continues), clearly ahead of players such as Hobbs, Sobers, Tendulkar etc. is pretty unlikely imo.

Maybe but like I said, I don't necessarily think there is only one tier above the likes of Sachin, Smith. And even if we were to assume that is true, I still think it is even more unlikely that Kohli will drop down to the Dravid tier.

 

[honestbharani]

Most of Lara's runs in SA were in series which had the far weaker SA attacks and some of the flattest pitches I've ever seen the country produce. Still played some great knocks, especially the double in 03, but Id say sachin and kohli's runs in the country were of comfortably higher quality overall.

Its tough to judge. Sachin in 96 was amazing but then so was Dravid in the final game there. Lara had a stand out innings in that washout of a series in 98 but apart from that, I think his 03 knocks were better than any Sachin produced in 01 (maybe the Bloemfontein 100 excepted, as it was phenomenal) coz Nel was basically a million times better than he ever was otherwise in any series during that time. I really think Sachin's best knocks were in the 2010-11 series against peak Steyn, pity we did not have more tests then. Virat's a little harder to judge as he has comfortably played in the most bowler friendly pitches of the 3 when playing in RSA but I don't think the wickets were any worse comparatively between Lara and Sachin during their careers in RSA. I would say Sachin has the better performances overall, but that is mainly due to SAchin being far better there in 96 than Lara was in 98.

 

[OverratedSanity]

2018 was tougher conditions than anything Lara or sachin had to face imo. The pitch for the third test in particular was ridiculous.

 

[honestbharani]

Isn't that what I said?

 

[OverratedSanity]

I am allowed to make posts agreeing with you , hb

 

[ankitj]

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Changed qualification to 500 runs to get more batsmen in the mix: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[Logan]

1. Sachin averaged 40+ against every opponent.

Lara averaged 40+ against every opponent except India against whom he averages 34.

2. Sachin averaged 40+ in every country.

Lara averaged less than 40 against India and NZ

3. Average in different countries

Sachin vs Lara

South Africa : 46 vs 46

England : 54 vs 48

NewZealand : 49 vs 36

Australia : 53 vs 41


Sachin Tendulkar was more consistent and performed better in tougher conditions than Brian Lara despite playing almost 70 matches more than him.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

1. Sachin averaged 40+ against every opponent.

Lara averaged 40+ against every opponent except India against whom he averages 34.

2. Sachin averaged 40+ in every country.

Lara averaged less than 40 against India and NZ

3. Average in different countries

South Africa : 46 vs 46

England : 54 vs 48

NewZealand : 49 vs 36

Australia : 53 vs 41


Sachin Tendulkar was more consistent and performed better in tougher conditions than Brian Lara despite playing almost 70 matches more than him.

Sachin was a right handed batsman; Lara was left-handed. End of discussion.

 

[Logan]

Says who? I have personally always felt Brian Lara was a better test match batsman than Sachin and there are many who hold that view. And FWIW, there are many who believe Sobers and Richards are well above the Sachin tier. .

While you may think some batsman like Lara or Richards were better than Sachin, telling they were above Sachin’s Tier is flat out wrong.

 

[honestbharani]

I am allowed to make posts agreeing with you , hb

Not as interesting though..

 

[honestbharani]

While you may think some batsman like Lara or Richards were better than Sachin, telling they were above Sachin’s Tier is flat out wrong.

No it is not. And I never said Lara was above Sachin's tier. I think they are both a tier below Bradman. But there are many who think others exist between these two tiers. I don't necessarily have to agree, but what is flat out wrong is to think only you are right. And honestly, I do not have time for a Sachin Vs Lara debate.. I will simply ask you to go read the Lara Vs Sachin thread in this very forum. Suffice to say, irrespective of however you wanna word it, there is more than enough reason for many to rate Lara to be the better batsman of the two. But since stats seems to be the language you speak (I am not getting into the drivel that is "tougher conditions"), here is some facts for you to chew on:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com


TL;DR : Lara averages more against the better bowlers of his era than Sachin. End of story.