The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[ataraxia]

I really don't know when or why this became about how Australia and the West Indies did against India. Since any hypothetical match up would probably be played in either the West Indies or Australia (although I guess the BCCI probably would fund the time travel technology required to make it happen so it could be played there).

The Indian side of the 80s was strong at home (India has been strong at home for a very long time), but the Indian sides of the 00s could likely have half their ATG batsmen. The side that beat Australia at home in 01 was a far stronger side than any side the West Indies faced in their prime. Sure, their bowlers sucked for the most part, but having Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly and Laxman is one Sehwag away from their strongest batting lineup that ever played together.

But maybe the West Indies would have destroyed that Indian team. Who can say?

It still has little relevance to any hypothetical match up between an 80s era WI side and a 00s era Australian side. A 2002 vintage Hayden was swatting ATG bowlers for fun. 2003 era Ponting was redefining the standard for back foot play. A 2005 Warne was bowling the Strauss ball. A 1987 Viv was smashing 6s with a twig. A 1983 Marshall was taking wickets for fun. A 1989 Greenidge was giving bowlers nightmares.

It'd be a tantalising match up. My only reservation is that the West Indies would struggle relatively more under modern playing conditions, while the Australians would have more issues if played under 1980s era conditions. The Australians covered more bases but the West Indies were perhaps more potent.

Azharuddin though.

 

[honestbharani]

I really don't know when or why this became about how Australia and the West Indies did against India. Since any hypothetical match up would probably be played in either the West Indies or Australia (although I guess the BCCI probably would fund the time travel technology required to make it happen so it could be played there).

The Indian side of the 80s was strong at home (India has been strong at home for a very long time), but the Indian sides of the 00s could likely have half their ATG batsmen. The side that beat Australia at home in 01 was a far stronger side than any side the West Indies faced in their prime. Sure, their bowlers sucked for the most part, but having Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly and Laxman is one Sehwag away from their strongest batting lineup that ever played together.

But maybe the West Indies would have destroyed that Indian team. Who can say?

It still has little relevance to any hypothetical match up between an 80s era WI side and a 00s era Australian side. A 2002 vintage Hayden was swatting ATG bowlers for fun. 2003 era Ponting was redefining the standard for back foot play. A 2005 Warne was bowling the Strauss ball. A 1987 Viv was smashing 6s with a twig. A 1983 Marshall was taking wickets for fun. A 1989 Greenidge was giving bowlers nightmares.

It'd be a tantalising match up. My only reservation is that the West Indies would struggle relatively more under modern playing conditions, while the Australians would have more issues if played under 1980s era conditions. The Australians covered more bases but the West Indies were perhaps more potent.

I dont agree with the last paragraph because, like I said before, it is the whole Bradman would have struggled against spinners in the SC argument, either way. I don't see any reason why either team could not adjust to whatever playing conditions are put before them. There is a reason why they are considered ATG teams. But I agree with the rest of the post. Cheers.

 

[stephen]

Azharuddin though.

Azhar never played with Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman and Ganguly.

 

[jimmy101]

You mean all at once?

 

[ataraxia]

Azhar never played with Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman and Ganguly.

Oh forgot Sehwag debuted in '01.

 

[stephen]

Oh forgot Sehwag debuted in '01.

He didn't play that famous series. Both openers (I checked earlier) didn't play huge numbers of tests and averaged in the mid to high 30s, which was on the low side for the era but they were decent at home. Obviously they were nothing on Sehwag.

 

[honestbharani]

Sehwag actually debuted in the ODI series that followed and was Man of the Match in one of them, IIRC.


EDIT: It was not his debut, that was in 99 but his first breakthrough performance was in that series against Aus in 01 in the ODIs.

 

[mr_mister]

I remember thinking as a kid Sad Ramesh was really good

 

[jimmy101]

He was a gun imo.

From the same era, SS Das always looked good to me. But just about every Indian I've ever met shits all over him.

 

[ankitj]

Sharma over Cummins? lol

Sharma took 9 of his 25 wickets in the last test against Bangladesh, who don't have a single batsman in their top six averaging over 40, and their openers average 25 each

Cummins can certainly come in. I ended up choosing bowlers averaging 15-16 in the year. Cummins been only shade lower at 20 or so. Sharma didn't exactly feast against Bangladesh. Was average in first game, got a good haul in second. Anyway, Cummins surely can get in, would have no issues with that.

Batting record in 2019: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...st_runs_career.html?class=1;id=2019;type=year
Bowling record in 2019: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...wickets_career.html?class=1;id=2019;type=year

 

[OverratedSanity]

He was a gun imo.

From the same era, SS Das always looked good to me. But just about every Indian I've ever met shits all over him.

I have always been a das apologist. Made some key contributions in the 01 series for which he never gets credit for. Ramesh was ok too. They weren't sehwag-Gambhir but were a massive improvement over the openers we'd had previously like Vikram rathore and msk prasad

 

[_00_deathscar]

I have always been a das apologist. Made some key contributions in the 01 series for which he never gets credit for. Ramesh was ok too. They weren't sehwag-Gambhir but were a massive improvement over the openers we'd had previously like Vikram rathore and msk prasad

No one called Prasad should ever be allowed to play for India ever again.

 

[CricAddict]

He was a gun imo.

From the same era, SS Das always looked good to me. But just about every Indian I've ever met shits all over him.

He was one of the so many openers of the wheel till Sehwag and Gambhir came in. Out of those in the wheel, only Jaffer was any good. Bangar, Akash Chopra, SS Das, Ramesh and quite a few other random guys rotated that time.

 

[jimmy101]

I have always been a das apologist. Made some key contributions in the 01 series for which he never gets credit for. Ramesh was ok too. They weren't sehwag-Gambhir but were a massive improvement over the openers we'd had previously like Vikram rathore and msk prasad

Yeah, my opinion of Das is completely formed from that 2001 series. Couldn't understand at the time why he got shafted from the India team in such a short time afterwards.

 

[h_hurricane]

I don't like Ganguly much and felt he was a bit over-rated as a skipper but the decision to open with Sehwag was one hell of a move. Imagine if it had backfired, every one would have been all over him. It required a lot of guts, and Ganguly had plenty of it. Through out 2000s, the most exciting phase to look forward to during an India test match was when Viru was walking in with a bat in hand.

 

[Prince EWS]

I have always been a das apologist. Made some key contributions in the 01 series for which he never gets credit for. Ramesh was ok too. They weren't sehwag-Gambhir but were a massive improvement over the openers we'd had previously like Vikram rathore and msk prasad

Yeah they did okay given the wheel that preceded them.

I liked Chopra too and think he was better than what his stats indicate, but that's a pretty low bar given he averaged 23. He dug in in Australia and protected the gun middle order better than I think anyone else could have, but then he made that his identity and didn't know how to kick on and make tons at home. He was the ECAS's Indian opener and probably their best one to play if they wanted to win in Australia or South Africa during his career, but he nerfed himself too much to be an all-conditions player likely to keep his spot, predictably averaged low 20s in Asia and got ****ed off.

 

[honestbharani]

I don't like Ganguly much and felt he was a bit over-rated as a skipper but the decision to open with Sehwag was one hell of a move. Imagine if it had backfired, every one would have been all over him. It required a lot of guts, and Ganguly had plenty of it. Through out 2000s, the most exciting phase to look forward to during an India test match was when Viru was walking in with a bat in hand.

Yeah they did okay given the wheel that preceded them.

I liked Chopra too and think he was better than what his stats indicate, but that's a pretty low bar given he averaged 23. He dug in in Australia and protected the gun middle order better than I think anyone else could have, but then he made that his identity and didn't know how to kick on and make tons at home. He was the ECAS's Indian opener and probably their best one to play if they wanted to win in Australia or South Africa during his career, but he nerfed himself too much to be an all-conditions played likely to keep his spot, predictably averaged low 20s in Asia and got ****ed off.

These two posts are actually related. Ganguly got it into his head that he could turn any random middle order aggressive batsman into an opener and decided that Yuvraj was the next for that route and shafted Chopra, destroying both their test careers in that process. One of the areas where Ganguly's captaincy is overrated. He stuck gold with Sehwag but then got greedy for more.

 

[h_hurricane]

These two posts are actually related. Ganguly got it into his head that he could turn any random middle order aggressive batsman into an opener and decided that Yuvraj was the next for that route and shafted Chopra, destroying both their test careers in that process. One of the areas where Ganguly's captaincy is overrated. He stuck gold with Sehwag but then got greedy for more.

Haha, clearly remember that period. Yuvraj had a good series in Pakistan when India made history by defeating them first time there. Chopra on the other hand had a poor series and continued to have the same against Australia. Yuvi was forced to open in Chennai. Glenn Mcgrath would be the last bowler you would want to face if you are spud opener Mcgrath didn't dismiss Yuvi as an opener but kept him in check until Warne dismissed him.

 

[Prince EWS]

Haha, clearly remember that period. Yuvraj had a good series in Pakistan when India made history by defeating them first time there. Chopra on the other hand had a poor series and continued to have the same against Australia. Yuvi was forced to open in Chennai. Glenn Mcgrath would be the last bowler you would want to face if you are spud opener Mcgrath didn't dismiss Yuvi as an opener but kept him in check until Warne dismissed him.

I remember watching Chopra's Test last innings at my grandmother's house. He looked truly ****ed as a player.

Ultimately I think it's hard to blame the selectors for your failings when you play ten Tests and average 23... but I do think in different circumstances he would've done much better. He kind of bought of his own meme as the new wall, but then at home he tried to continue it but was actually expected to make runs. He could've made runs IMO, but his MO was burned in by that point.

 

[CricAddict]

A lot of people being discussed in the last 2 pages belong to the Non-descript thread and not the ATG thread.