The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[stephen]

That’s because SL batsmen don’t make enough runs away from home for him bowl on the 4th and 5th days. He has identical record to Warne in almost all countries His overall away average doesn’t look good because of his poor record in Australia. I’m not sure if it’s 29.. remember it being around 27.

If you’re going to remove Bangaladesh and Zimbabwe from his record because of their inferiority, why don’t you remove his record vs Australia because Australia were much better team than anyone during his career. It’s ****ing stupid

When you're discussing all time great cricketers you don't use their records in first class or club cricket to prove your point. Removing Zimbabwe and Bangladesh from Murali's record is removing a huge distorting factor from his record during his time both sides were not test standard, they were utterly garbage and wouldn't have won a game against a shield side.

Conversely, Murali's record against Australia is worth mentioning precisely because they were the best side in the world. Based on his Sheffield shield average I'm not convinced Warne would have done much better.

 

[mr_mister]

Ok. So Sobers shouldn't get the automatic nod because Bradman is there, but Gilchrist should because he is a better batsman than Knott.

For the record though, I don't think you drop possibly your 2nd best batsman and best slip fielder for a specialist 5th bowler and also there isn't such a thing as too much batting in the top order when one considers that it takes one delivery to dismiss any batsman, even Bradman.

In any event, I think you said a few weeks back that we shouldn't take most things you post seriously. So I'll take your advice.

My second paragraph in that post was me admitting I'm aware of my hypocrisy regarding Gilly/Knott and Sobers, no need to be so touchy mate. You seem a bit passive aggressive for my liking

 

[Bolo.]

No player can be a lock as 5th bowler. There is too much debate over optimal side composition.

If Sobers doesnt get picked as a 5th, he would make most peoples sides as a bat, and even if you think he is marginal as a specialist bat, there is still fielding and his value as a sixth bowler to consider.

Not a lock in the sense that less than 100% of people would pick him and I can see sensible (if a little weak) argument against doing so, but very close on both counts.

 

[kyear2]

My second paragraph in that post was me admitting I'm aware of my hypocrisy regarding Gilly/Knott and Sobers, no need to be so touchy mate. You seem a bit passive aggressive for my liking

Wasn't being touchy, the post genuinely left me in a state of belwilderment .

Even if you want to make the argument that Bradman is the only sure lock, Sobers is undoubtedly the 2nd player selected and when you look at his batting, slip fielding and bowling he is arguably the most valuable player on the team, including Bradman.

After those 2, for me the next two names listed are indeed Gilchrist and Marshall in no particular order. The man who redefined the role of the wicket keeper batsman and the opening fast bowler who in my estimation is the greatest to ever do so.

 

[Coronis]

When you're discussing all time great cricketers you don't use their records in first class or club cricket to prove your point.

Yessir.

After those 2, for me the next two names listed are indeed Gilchrist and Marshall in no particular order. The man who redefined the role of the wicket keeper batsman and the opening fast bowler who in my estimation is the greatest to ever do so.

Nah McGrath was never as bad as Marshall was at the start. Marshall also struggled against the weakest batting side of his time.

 

[kyear2]

Yessir.



Nah McGrath was never as bad as Marshall was at the start. Marshall also struggled against the weakest batting side of his time.

Well I did say in my estimation. Many others will disagree.

I will suggest though that you look up why Marshall was playing that early and what his reaction was to what happened to him on that 1st tour to India and how he managed to make amends for it. Wouldn't even bother to respond to the NZ (who he averaged 21 against) comment.

 

[Slifer]

Yessir.



Nah McGrath was never as bad as Marshall was at the start. Marshall also struggled against the weakest batting side of his time.

What?? What team did Marshall struggle against?? He was sub 23 vs all comers and sub 25 in all countries (not counting 3 tests in NZ). Huh??

 

[Slifer]

For an XI that will have to actually have to take the field to play for earth, it's hard to conceive a better team. Just near perfect.

One can quibble between McGrath and Steyn or Sachin or Smith, but that's minor.

How is a Wasim in an atg justified over imran seriously?? Because he's left handed.

 

[ankitj]

Struggling against weak side should always be ignored. It doesn't tell anything specific about the player. It's just statistical noise.

 

[kyear2]

How is a Wasim in an atg justified over imran seriously?? Because he's left handed.

1. It's not a ATG team per say, as I said if I were to choose a team to actually take the field (hence Barry Richards over Hobbs)

2. Neither of them are in my top 8 fast bowlers and hence not quite imho not in the same tier as my very top guys.

3. Red Hill made a point re choosing a Garner or Akram because they were accostomed to coming in 1st change and better old ball bowlers and more adept at taking lower order wickets.

So again for a normal ATG team neither would make it, neither would Barry Richards.

 

[Logan]

What?? What team did Marshall struggle against?? He was sub 23 vs all comers and sub 25 in all countries (not counting 3 tests in NZ). Huh??

Hadlee had a sub 25 average everywhere and 27 against the then top team WestIndies(not counting 3 Tests in Pakistan).

Hadlee was just as good as Marshall. He played for a weaker team without any support and was just as good as Marshall.

 

[h_hurricane]

An argument for Miller and Imran over Sobers - they were better bowlers. Sobers shouldn't get the automatic nod as the sole all rounder because with Bradman in a team you might need to shore up bowling more than batting. Bradman basically had the career output of 2 ATG batsmen.

I guess that same logic also means Knot's extra keeping ability might be enough to justify him over Gilchrist - in fact Bradman, Sobers and Gilchrist together might be too much batting at the expense of extra keeping and bowling

Though the whole thing with Gilchrist he was an extremely capable keeper to ATG bowlers for most of his career and took a ton of pride in his work. Not quite as gifted as Knott, Evans or Healy, but the gap in batting ability between him and the them is larger

Sobers has genuine claims to be the second best batsman ever. He makes the team on batting alone. You might choose to not bowl him at all, he still is,at worst the second one to be picked when the team is laid out.

As you rightly said, Bradman alone is worth 2 batsmen, so we could as well pick the best fits in their primary roles from no.7 onwards. Knott/Healy/Evans and a few others could make it ahead of Gilly by this though process.Same goes for all the bowlers.

All it means is that Sobers makes it on his primary skill alone, Glichrist,Imran,Miller do not.

 

[mr_mister]

At least 5 middle order bats have the genuine claim to be the second-best batsman ever

 

[Coronis]

What?? What team did Marshall struggle against?? He was sub 23 vs all comers and sub 25 in all countries (not counting 3 tests in NZ). Huh??

This is initially what I was referring to, I didn’t realise he had played against them elsewhere. Also, why are we not counting that?

 

[aussie tragic]

I think some need to wind in the stats search regarding Sobers lol

In 1988, Sir Donald Bradman conferred on Sobers the title of the greatest all-round cricketer he had ever seen. Bradman’s judgment in these matters is regarded as Holy Writ.

https://www.wisden.com/almanack/garry-sobers-all-rounder-almanack

 

[h_hurricane]

At least 5 middle order bats have the genuine claim to be the second-best batsman ever

Yes, but at least 3 wicket keepers have genuine claim to be a better wicket keeper than Gilchrist.

Additionally, we have 2-3 spots for a middle order bat. There is only a spot for a WK.

 

[mr_mister]

Yes, but at least 3 wicket keepers have genuine claim to be a better wicket keeper than Gilchrist.

Additionally, we have 2-3 spots for a middle order bat. There is only a spot for a WK.

More like at least 10 lol. Him averaging 10+ runs more than any of those 10 though is the reason I thought he was the unanimous pick. But I'm happy to concede the Gilchrist point. Regret ever mentioning him lol. My main gripe was how Marshall seems to be considered the absolute undisputed best pacemen on CW when it seems so many have an argument

To me it's no different than the 2nd best bat after the Don debate, where we seem to rightfully scoff when someone says player x is definitely the second best

 

[trundler]

Waite, Cameron, Healy, Tallon, Grout, Oldfield, Evans, Knott, Taylor, Bari, Latif, Jayawardena.

 

[Slifer]

This is initially what I was referring to, I didn’t realise he had played against them elsewhere. Also, why are we not counting that?

Sample size dude. And the fact that he was also injured during this particular series. But for schitts and giggles, even if you include that, his stats still are more complete than his competitors: McGrath averaged 29 in SL and 31 in Pakistan, Hadlee 28 overall vs Pakistan and 45 in Pakistan, Steyn 31 vs England, 27 vs Oz/SL, + 30 in UAE, SL and England etc. But use whatever parameters you like Marshall still went sub 23 vs all comers, SR under 50 vs all comers overall and sub 25 away vs everyone except for NZ.

 

[Slifer]

I think some need to wind in the stats search regarding Sobers lol

In 1988, Sir Donald Bradman conferred on Sobers the title of the greatest all-round cricketer he had ever seen. Bradman’s judgment in these matters is regarded as Holy Writ.

https://www.wisden.com/almanack/garry-sobers-all-rounder-almanack

Not just the Don, but Keith Miller himself considered Sir Gary to be the best cricketer of all time.