The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[mr_mister]

But literally just did the same thing with Gilchrist.

And some would say the same thing with Sobers and some would add Hobbs and I personally say Marshall.

Not really. From what I've observed Gilchrist is considered by everyone here the absolute cut and dried best keeper option for an ATG side

Theres arguments for Miller and Imran being as good as Sobers, arguments for Hutton, Sutcliffe and Gavaskar being as good as Hobbs and yeah as mentioned earlier I feel there pacemen as good as Marshall

 

[h_hurricane]

Ambrose has fallen out of the topmost echelon for most people here?

Not for me. Best quick I have seen(along with Mcgrath). Only sub 21 bowler with more than 400 wickets. Should be an automatic inclusion every time a Top 5 all time fast bowlers' list is discussed.

Should be in the discussion for a Top 3.

 

[Slifer]

We all have our own opinions, I don't think there is a coat of varnish between as far down as the top 7, but we can agree to disagree. I also don't think Imran was quite top 7. Think the top 3 have separated themselves a bit from the crowd with Hadlee just a coat of varnish behind if not in the same class. Followed by the likes of Ambrose, Trueman, Lillee, Donald, Garner. And I don't see how one can definitively say that the ones at the bottom are equal and as well rounded with as complete records as the top 3.

Playing Devil advocate here, but how is Allan Donald's record (for example) not as well rounded as McGrath??

 

[mr_mister]

It's all so silly. All those ATG quicks from the 80s and 90s who had near identical averages from huge sample sizes are clearly in each others class

 

[vcs]

I adore Steyn and found him comfortably the more exciting bowler to watch, but think McGrath and Marshall are ahead of him.

 

[ankitj]

Playing Devil advocate here, but how is Allan Donald's record (for example) not as well rounded as McGrath??

Fully agree. Donald is nearly as good as McGrath. It would be perfectly legit to rate Donald above McGrath.

 

[trundler]

What about Akram Vs Donald?

 

[mr_mister]

What about Akram Vs Donald?

Akrams got that slightly higher average but also played from 85 to 2003.

Has the left handed factor and his banana swing deliveries


It's splitting hairs imo

 

[Logan]

Playing Devil advocate here, but how is Allan Donald's record (for example) not as well rounded as McGrath??

Donald averaged more than 30 only against Australia.

McGrath averaged more than 30 in two countries, SriLanka and Pakistan.


McGrath had a better average.

Donald had a better SR.

 

[Logan]

What about Akram Vs Donald?

Statistically

Allan Donald had a sub-25 average and sub-50 SR against everyone except Australia.

Wasim Akram had an average of 29 against England, South Africa and India.

 

[Logan]

This is the order based on their averages and SR

Test Averages
1. Ambrose
2. McGrath
3. Donald
4. Akram

Test SR
1. Donald
2. McGrath
3. Ambrose
4. Akram

ODI SR
1. Donald
2. McGrath
3. Akram
4. Ambrose

ODI Averages
1. Donald
2. McGrath
3. Akram
4. Ambrose


If we use this simple point system
1st place = 4 points
2nd place = 3 points
3rd place = 2 points
4th place = 1 point

Tests
Donald = 6 points
McGrath = 6 points
Ambrose = 6 points
Akram = 2 points

ODIS
Donald = 8 points
McGrath = 6 points
Akram = 4 points
Ambrose = 2 points

 

[kyear2]

Ambrose has fallen out of the topmost echelon for most people here?

I have him 5th or 6th with Trueman

 

[kyear2]

Not really. From what I've observed Gilchrist is considered by everyone here the absolute cut and dried best keeper option for an ATG side

Theres arguments for Miller and Imran being as good as Sobers, arguments for Hutton, Sutcliffe and Gavaskar being as good as Hobbs and yeah as mentioned earlier I feel there pacemen as good as Marshall

Gilchrist isn't. Some would still choose Knott as the better pure keeper. I think Wisden chose Knott over Gilchrist. As a pure keeper, even his predecessor was better, so all depends what you are looking for. But yes, Gilchrist is choose more often than he isn't , but then again, so is Marshall, here and everywhere else as well.

There is absolutely no argument for Miller or Imran over Sobers. Sobers is arguably the 2nd best batsman ever and at worst doesn't get out of the top 5 after Bradman. He also bats in the top 6 which the other 2 can't do in an ATG XI. Also Sobers was a unanimous selection for the Cricinfo team. He is a good enough 5th bowler offering variety of needed and whose slip fielding was close to peerless and would be a necessity at 2nd slip / 1st slip for Wane.

Hobbs, don't think he was the best, that is for me Hutton, but he was undoubtably the greatest.

I think Marshall and McGrath has separated themselves a bit from the rest with Steyn right there followed closely by Hadlee then Ambrose and Trueman. McGrath has been dropped from a few sides of late because of of his batting for Hadlee, who was right there. Because of that how many persons don't rate Marshall at the very worse a lock to be one of the 3 pacers selected?

 

[akilana]

Have you seen his home and away stats?

Against non- Bangladesh/ Zimbabwe teams his home average is 22 vs almost 29 away. It's a gigantic home advantage.

I mean 29 is a fantastic average for a spinner and he'd almost be an ATG if his away stats were his career stats, but the decks in Sri Lanka were very Murali friendly.

The thing is that Murali favoured decks that were similar to the decks that Warne liked due to the excessive rip and slower pace than his Indian contemporaries. Indian spinners are almost all faster and turn the ball less because that's what their pitches favour.

The minnows help his stats too, but the pitches were a huge boon.

That’s because SL batsmen don’t make enough runs away from home for him bowl on the 4th and 5th days. He has identical record to Warne in almost all countries His overall away average doesn’t look good because of his poor record in Australia. I’m not sure if it’s 29.. remember it being around 27.

If you’re going to remove Bangaladesh and Zimbabwe from his record because of their inferiority, why don’t you remove his record vs Australia because Australia were much better team than anyone during his career. It’s ****ing stupid

 

[Red]

What about Akram Vs Donald?

Akrams got that slightly higher average but also played from 85 to 2003.

Has the left handed factor and his banana swing deliveries


It's splitting hairs imo

It's also important to factor in how good some guys were with the older ball, Garner and Wasim were particularly adept at bowling with the older ball and getting out the tail. Which is not a skill that should be underrated. In a three man attack you want one guy who can do that. Which is why I think Starc is more valuable to the current Aust test team than he can sometimes appear.

 

[Red]

Hutton
B.Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
V.Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist +
Wasim
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

 

[kyear2]

It's also important to factor in how good some guys were with the older ball, Garner and Wasim were particularly adept at bowling with the older ball and getting out the tail. Which is not a skill that should be underrated. In a three man attack you want one guy who can do that. Which is why I think Starc is more valuable to the current Aust test team than he can sometimes appear.

Very valid and underrated point. And something most of us don't factor in when selecting a ATG or even international team.

And to boot he bring lh variation and is handy with the bat.

 

[mr_mister]

Gilchrist isn't. Some would still choose Knott as the better pure keeper. I think Wisden chose Knott over Gilchrist. As a pure keeper, even his predecessor was better, so all depends what you are looking for. But yes, Gilchrist is choose more often than he isn't , but then again, so is Marshall, here and everywhere else as well.

There is absolutely no argument for Miller or Imran over Sobers. Sobers is arguably the 2nd best batsman ever and at worst doesn't get out of the top 5 after Bradman. He also bats in the top 6 which the other 2 can't do in an ATG XI. Also Sobers was a unanimous selection for the Cricinfo team. He is a good enough 5th bowler offering variety of needed and whose slip fielding was close to peerless and would be a necessity at 2nd slip / 1st slip for Wane.

Hobbs, don't think he was the best, that is for me Hutton, but he was undoubtably the greatest.

I think Marshall and McGrath has separated themselves a bit from the rest with Steyn right there followed closely by Hadlee then Ambrose and Trueman. McGrath has been dropped from a few sides of late because of of his batting for Hadlee, who was right there. Because of that how many persons don't rate Marshall at the very worse a lock to be one of the 3 pacers selected?

An argument for Miller and Imran over Sobers - they were better bowlers. Sobers shouldn't get the automatic nod as the sole all rounder because with Bradman in a team you might need to shore up bowling more than batting. Bradman basically had the career output of 2 ATG batsmen.

I guess that same logic also means Knot's extra keeping ability might be enough to justify him over Gilchrist - in fact Bradman, Sobers and Gilchrist together might be too much batting at the expense of extra keeping and bowling

Though the whole thing with Gilchrist he was an extremely capable keeper to ATG bowlers for most of his career and took a ton of pride in his work. Not quite as gifted as Knott, Evans or Healy, but the gap in batting ability between him and the them is larger

 

[kyear2]

Hutton
B.Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
V.Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist +
Wasim
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

For an XI that will have to actually have to take the field to play for earth, it's hard to conceive a better team. Just near perfect.

One can quibble between McGrath and Steyn or Sachin or Smith, but that's minor.

 

[kyear2]

An argument for Miller and Imran over Sobers - they were better bowlers. Sobers shouldn't get the automatic nod as the sole all rounder because with Bradman in a team you might need to shore up bowling more than batting. Bradman basically had the career output of 2 ATG batsmen.

I guess that same logic also means Knot's extra keeping ability might be enough to justify him over Gilchrist - in fact Bradman, Sobers and Gilchrist together might be too much batting at the expense of extra keeping and bowling

Though the whole thing with Gilchrist he was an extremely capable keeper to ATG bowlers for most of his career and took a ton of pride in his work. Not quite as gifted as Knott, Evans or Healy, but the gap in batting ability between him and the them is larger

Ok. So Sobers shouldn't get the automatic nod because Bradman is there, but Gilchrist should because he is a better batsman than Knott.

For the record though, I don't think you drop possibly your 2nd best batsman and best slip fielder for a specialist 5th bowler and also there isn't such a thing as too much batting in the top order when one considers that it takes one delivery to dismiss any batsman, even Bradman.

In any event, I think you said a few weeks back that we shouldn't take most things you post seriously. So I'll take your advice.