The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[ankitj]

Guys, Kuldeep had a decent world cup. He didn't take a bagful of wickets while Pandya took meme wickets but Kuldeep was instrumental in keeping it tight in quite a few games. When you start looking at averages in lol sample size you miss sight of important things. Kuldeep had 2nd best economy rate of Indian bowlers in world cup after Bumrah. Indian bowlers had a top notch world cup so we are not comparing him with duds.

 

[Bolo.]

If I'm picking a team, and because of similar styles, would't play both Hadlee and McGrath. So if I'm playing Hadlee because of his batting, Marshall and Steyn and my other two pacers and opening bowlers.

Balancing an attack is likely more important than picking the better of two players of almost identical quality.

 

[bagapath]

Hadlee and McGrath would be any captain's delight. With their accuracy, subtle variations, big match presence, supreme self confidence and cricketing intelligence, and not express but sharp enough pace that would suit any condition, I cant think of a better combination to take the new ball. There are many deadly combos that can match them; Marshall-Steyn, Ambrose-Akram, Trueman-Imran, Lillee-Holding... Each pair I am sure can come up with its own cricketing magic. But the Hadlee-McGrath combination can match any of these from history and it will take a very brave man who can confidently claim that he can improve that attack by replacing either one - or both - of them.

 

[honestbharani]

In theory, yes. But as we have seen many times, cricket practically is a lot different from how it appears on paper. I am not saying they wont be good, but they are very similar and the attack has more of a chance to be more all-round if we leave one of them out for a different type of pacer, preferably a lot faster and more of a physical threat. There is a reason why it does not always work out when attacks play similar bowlers from both ends. The variation is definitely of essence in an actual cricket game.

 

[Coronis]

Theoretically this attack would probably be ideal(ish?) in terms of quality, variety and #batdeep. Hopefully covering all possible match scenarios.

Hadlee
Akram
Marshall
Warne

Sobers as 5th ofc.

 

[Bolo.]

Hadlee and McGrath would be any captain's delight. With their accuracy, subtle variations, big match presence, supreme self confidence and cricketing intelligence, and not express but sharp enough pace that would suit any condition, I cant think of a better combination to take the new ball. There are many deadly combos that can match them; Marshall-Steyn, Ambrose-Akram, Trueman-Imran, Lillee-Holding... Each pair I am sure can come up with its own cricketing magic. But the Hadlee-McGrath combination can match any of these from history and it will take a very brave man who can confidently claim that he can improve that attack by replacing either one - or both - of them.

You put a spinner in just about every (ATG) side, yes? Same principle. Spinners obviously offer a much bigger variety bump, , but they also get picked even when they are a substantial quality drop. See Gibbs making WIs sides ahead of Garner etc.

 

[srbhkshk]

Theoretically this attack would probably be ideal(ish?) in terms of quality, variety and #batdeep. Hopefully covering all possible match scenarios.

Hadlee
Akram
Marshall
Warne

Sobers as 5th ofc.

to go up against

Imran
Davidson
McGrath
Murali

Kallis as fifth.

 

[bagapath]

If you want four main bowlers (plus the obvious 5th bowler - Gary Sobers) then both the ESPN XI by experts and Richie Benaud's XI had terrific combos

ESPN XI

Akram
Marshall
Warne
Lillee

Benaud XI

Imran
Warne
Lillee
Barnes

If you put together a left over attack

Hadlee
O'Reilley
Trueman
McGrath

then it is no way inferior to those attacks

You can even build another one with

Holding
Steyn
Ambrose
Murali

It is still comparable.

The top 20/25 bowlers are impossible to split when brought together in combinations. This is good fantasy league talk with no absolutes.

 

[Gob]

Theoretically this attack would probably be ideal(ish?) in terms of quality, variety and #batdeep. Hopefully covering all possible match scenarios.

Hadlee
Akram
Marshall
Warne

Sobers as 5th ofc.

Someone with extra bounce no?

 

[kyear2]

If you want four main bowlers (plus the obvious 5th bowler - Gary Sobers) then both the ESPN XI by experts and Richie Benaud's XI had terrific combos

ESPN XI

Akram
Marshall
Warne
Lillee

Benaud XI

Imran
Warne
Lillee
Barnes

If you put together a left over attack

Hadlee
O'Reilley
Trueman
McGrath

then it is no way inferior to those attacks

You can even build another one with

Holding
Steyn
Ambrose
Murali

It is still comparable.

The top 20/25 bowlers are impossible to split when brought together in combinations. This is good fantasy league talk with no absolutes.

To me this is simply just not true and it's something you keep saying. For example Holding and Imran were Greta's, they are just not as good as say Steyn and McGrath. Or really isn't that hard to split them.

Every one would obviously place them differently, but to say all of the top 25 are basically just as good as each is just an over simplification and not plausible.

For me.

Marshall
McGrath
Steyn

Hadlee
Muralitharan
Warne
Ambrose
Trueman


O'Reilly
Donald
Akram
Lillee
Imran
Holding
Barnes

My top 15 off the top of my head. Probably forgot someone.

 

[trundler]

I'd say McGrath is a moderate upgrade over Holding.

 

[Slifer]

To me this is simply just not true and it's something you keep saying. For example Holding and Imran were Greta's, they are just not as good as say Steyn and McGrath. Or really isn't that hard to split them.

Every one would obviously place them differently, but to say all of the top 25 are basically just as good as each is just an over simplification and not plausible.

For me.

Marshall
McGrath
Steyn

Hadlee
Muralitharan
Warne
Ambrose
Trueman


O'Reilly
Donald
Akram
Lillee
Imran
Holding
Barnes

My top 15 off the top of my head. Probably forgot someone.

Yes you did. Possibly the most underrated fast bowler of all time Joel Garner. And tbh there is no bowler in history head or shoulders (figuratively or literally) better than Garner.

 

[Jack1]

I scrapped my post

But taking in wickets per game, batting and fielding Richard Hadlee might be ahead by daylight. I tried to think about this a bit

1. Hadlee

2. Marshall, Khan (I), Steyn

3. The rest

Modern era

1. Gavaskar
2. Hayden
3. Sir Viv Richards
4. Smith
5. AB DeV
6. Chanderpaul
7. Gilchrist (wk)
8. Imran Khan
9. Sir Rich Hadlee
10. Marshall
11. Steyn

Good god that looks good. Conditions dependant. You could bring a spinner in on a rank turner, but this side is going to dominate in all conditions I think..don't want to pick a spinner for the sake of it. If I made a mistake here and forgot someone quote me .

I've got to say theissue with Ambrose, McGrath people like that- can't bat or field. they simply are far inferior to players like Hadlee, Khan and Marshall

 

[Logan]

I would rank Donald on par with Ambrose if not slightly better.

Donald underperformed against Australia while Ambrose underperformed against India and Pakistan.

Ambrose had a superior average while Donald had a superior strike rate.

Personally, I found Donald more devastating and his superb performances on Asian pitches made him the slightly better bowler IMO.

 

[Shri]

left arm xi

1. Alistair Cook
2. Graeme Smith
3. Kumar Sangakkara
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Brian Lara
6. Garry Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Ravinddra Jadeja
9. Alan Davidson
10. Wasim Akram
11. Mitchell Johnson

 

[trundler]

Pity that there's a huge drop off in quality between Davo and Johnson.

 

[kyear2]

I scrapped my post

But taking in wickets per game, batting and fielding Richard Hadlee might be ahead by daylight. I tried to think about this a bit

1. Hadlee

2. Marshall, Khan (I), Steyn

3. The rest

Modern era

1. Gavaskar
2. Hayden
3. Sir Viv Richards
4. Smith
5. AB DeV
6. Chanderpaul
7. Gilchrist (wk)
8. Imran Khan
9. Sir Rich Hadlee
10. Marshall
11. Steyn

Good god that looks good. Conditions dependant. You could bring a spinner in on a rank turner, but this side is going to dominate in all conditions I think..don't want to pick a spinner for the sake of it. If I made a mistake here and forgot someone quote me .

I've got to say theissue with Ambrose, McGrath people like that- can't bat or field. they simply are far inferior to players like Hadlee, Khan and Marshall

You literally bent over backwards to create parameters to support your beliefs.

McGrath in my mind is sufficiently superior enough of a bowler compared to Imran that the rest doesn't matter. With Hadlee, Marshall and Warne not need the pick the other bowler based on batting. They are chosen to bowl, period. Now if you wanted to replace McGrath with Hadlee using that reasoning, then you have an argument and then Steyn gets in.

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Steyn

Looks great and enough batting and fielding to make everyone happy.

 

[kyear2]

Yes you did. Possibly the most underrated fast bowler of all time Joel Garner. And tbh there is no bowler in history head or shoulders (figuratively or literally) better than Garner.

Yeah. Garner belongs in there just below Lillee. Lindwall, Davison, Waqar and Roberts / (controversial pick) Bishop would be the rest make up the rest of the top 20.

 

[ataraxia]

Miller is also a good option, not too far behind Davidson/Lindwall/Lillee

McGrath
Marshall
Hadlee
Ambrose
Steyn
Barnes
Imran
Wasim

Then

Garner
Holding
Lindwall
Davidson
Trueman
Lillee
Waqar
Donald
Miller
Lohmann
Roberts

Then the rest. Ordering in the second group not in any way formalised. Next would be the likes of Larwood, Anderson, Kapil, Hall. Spinners:

Warne / Muralitharan
O'Reilly / Grimmett
The rest (Kumble, Verity, Benaud, etc.)

I find it really hard to compare quicks and spinners so I won't try to.

 

[Slifer]

Miller is also a good option, not too far behind Davidson/Lindwall/Lillee

McGrath
Marshall
Hadlee
Ambrose
Steyn
Barnes
Imran
Wasim

Then

Garner
Holding
Lindwall
Davidson
Trueman
Lillee
Waqar
Donald
Miller
Lohmann
Roberts

Then the rest. Ordering in the second group not in any way formalised. Next would be the likes of Larwood, Anderson, Kapil, Hall. Spinners:

Warne / Muralitharan
O'Reilly / Grimmett
The rest (Kumble, Verity, Benaud, etc.)

I find it really hard to compare quicks and spinners so I won't try to.

Imo Allan Donald is an atg fast bowler and belongs in any top tier of fast bowlers. Nothing achieved by the likes of Ambrose, McGrath, Akram etc completely overshadowed Donald who was their contemporary...