Why aren't there more spinner all rounders?

[Briggs]

Jadeja, Ashwin, Shakib, Shadab, Chase etc

 

[Jack1]

Wagner is a rare breed, he relies on variety and guile in test matches but doesn't play international limited overs. About the spin all-rounders Jadeja and Shakib are atg test players assuming they both get in an asia xi atg team

 

[h_hurricane]

What are the odds that Jadeja would go on to become the best spin bowling all rounder in history ? Pretty good imo (if you ignore Faulkner who played a century back and had a short career).

Shakib is the only other contender. It would be interesting how he comes back after the ban.

 

[ataraxia]

Sobers. Hammond. Benaud. Even from his own country Ashwin and Tendulkar will have cases. Sobers is actually rather good as a spinner. Ofc these all lean one way or another in dominance but Sobers and Hammond cannot be overlooked.

 

[Jack1]

Sobers was ok but his average is better than it should be he bowled in a super stacked team with heaps of pressure at the other end on the batsmen , he might have averaged 5 more in a normal side so I take his bowling with a massive pinch or salt when his average was 34 I really
dont think he was that good at bowling to be blunt despite being an atg batsman. I mean obviously he’s an atg batsman but he wouldn’t bowl at all in any team we picked him in, whereas Jadeja definitely would dominate in favourable conditions so would be more valuable than sobers in my view , aware thead was about active play(a)ers just an fyi milen

Suppose also jadeja trumps sobers in the field , although both gun fielders Jadeja is probably better to have in the field

 

[AndrewB]

Hammond bowled fast-medium.

 

[Jack1]

Hammond bowled fast-medium.

He bowled pies he averaged 38

Edit less than a wicket per game. Not an all rounder just a batter, makes more sense

 

[ataraxia]

This was at a time when Valentine averaged 30 in Tests. Sobers' FC average was less than 2 digits higher than Valentine's. From his stats I think he was used as more of an all-rounder at the FC level and focused on batsmanship in Tests. Used as an all-rounder he is stretches ahead of Jadeja. His bowling average is also affected by him
bowling 54 overs in a big innings with the series already won, probably on a road (1966 in England).

 

[ataraxia]

Hammond bowled fast-medium.

Sorry yes.

 

[Jack1]

Depends on conditions , I wouldn’t pick sobers over Jadeja on a spin friendly surface

 

[ataraxia]

Depends on conditions , I wouldn’t pick sobers over Jadeja on a spin friendly surface

So, a World XI of?

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Gilchrist +
Jadeja
Pacer
Warne
Pacer
Pacer/Mura

I find this a wee bit difficult to stomach.

 

[Jack1]

So, a World XI of?

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Gilchrist +
Jadeja
Pacer
Warne
Pacer
Pacer/Mura

I find this a wee bit difficult to stomach.

I am not picking Murali or Warne over Jadeja on a turning wicket

I was more comparing sobers and jadeja I wouldn’t pick either in an atg team, but they are both atg players

I’d playing something like this conditions dependant

1. Bradman (c)
2. Sutcliffe
3. Barrington
4. Steven Smith
5. AB De Villiers
6. Chanderpaul
7. Gilchrist
8. Billy Bates
9. Billy Barnes
10. SF Barnes
11. Lohmann

Bowling is very debatable considering variables by eras and I’d like to see everyone in person to make valid picks. Lohmann is a dead lock in an atg team with his stats regardless, it’s unfair to discount early era players the game wouldn’t exist unless someone played at the start but it’s just my opinion.
To be honest if you have 15 games minimum as the cut off this bowling attack is a lock in stats wise whether I like it or not. Considering the variety of sf Barnes it’s going to be hard to look past them and I think they would be the hardest to bat against for my top 7.

Btw there’s a reason for the batting , the top 6 are the best in test history in those slots apart from Bradman who can bat anywhere anyway, I take all atg discussion with a pinch of salt
We are all guessing bar stats

 

[ataraxia]

By those measures put in Headley, Voges, and G Pollock. That is frankly ridiculous.

 

[Jack1]

By those measures put in Headley, Voges, and G Pollock. That is frankly ridiculous.

Tell me what’s ridiculous and why

I’ll wait for your answer

There has to be a cut off for minimum inns , what that is is a personal choice , get over it lol it’s not a serious discussion anyway

and btw tell me who you are replacing and in what positions with those players I’ll wait haha

 

[ataraxia]

At that time you could make a Test side off a FC batting average of 22. Such is the lack in quality of those pitches. Also, at that time FC stats better reflect a career.

 

[ataraxia]

All three played more Tests than Bates.

 

[ataraxia]

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Sobers - 5
Grace* - 6
Hammond - 7
Gilchrist +
Hadlee - 2
Marshall - 3
Warne - 4
McGrath - 1

Bad side to most people here but legions ahead of yours in the eyes of most.

(Hammond ahead of Tendulkar is very debatable)

 

[Jack1]

At that time you could make a Test side off a FC batting average of 22. Such is the lack in quality of those pitches. At that time FC stats also better reflect a career.

So what? Lohmann’s average has to basically double to get knocked out. I know what you are saying but I don’t actually care that much there are a ton of psychological , era and cultural (and other else) variables that go with the averages . There are at least 20 bowlers that anyone can argue for an atg team era dependant I am well aware

 

[Jack1]

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Sobers - 5
Grace* - 6
Hammond - 7
Gilchrist +
Hadlee - 2
Marshall - 3
Warne - 4
McGrath - 1

Bad side to most people here but legions ahead of yours in the eyes of most.

Difference between me and you is I don’t care about style, nationality or anything else nor am I serious, keep arguing with yourself lol nothing can be proven for atg teams and most of it is an opinion

The fact is your batting line up is very very weak compared to mine, painfully so actually but GL with it, let’s move on who cares haha

 

[ataraxia]

So what? Lohmann’s average has to basically double to get knocked out. I know what you are saying but I don’t actually care that much there are a ton of psychological , era and cultural (and other else) variables that go with the averages . There are at least 20 bowlers that anyone can argue for an atg team era dependant I am well aware

Putting Lohmann and SF Barnes in is okay but putting Chanders, ABDV, Billy Barnes, Bates, and Barrington is not. ABDV does have a case as keeper though.